The RetrieverTraining.Net Forums The Retriever Academy
Total Retriever Training with Mike Lardy
Hawkeye Media Gunners Up Tritronics Gun Dog Broker
Page 7 of 21 FirstFirst ... 5678917 ... LastLast
Results 61 to 70 of 208

Thread: Labradors - are we splitting the breed?

  1. #61
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Grantville GA
    Posts
    2,204

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by polmaise View Post
    Unfortunately, the issues are not only sad! they are real!.The implications are Universal,regardless of the gene pool,if the gene pool is narrowed by the judged winners,and the market breed or are drawn to the 'gene pool' of champions?
    Abnormalities cannot be masked!..they are abnormalities!..Judging and awarding abnormalities can and does promote the gene! ?
    The Rhodesian ridgeback (ridge on the back) Is actually an ''abnormality'' in the gene!...pups that had no ridge were discarded at birth!...not by the mother. By the breeder! who was breeding to the ''breed standard''!???
    I suppose we can argue & each can feel whoever posts last wins. But obviously the abnormalities are not universal in the face of an adequate gene pool - as I previously stated. And while you give examples of breeds where there have been problems & breeders who are unscrupulous, they do not represent the normal or the majority of breeders of pure bred dogs. Using the Labrador Retriever & field bred Labs in particular as an example, our field bred dogs are performing today at their highest levels in the history of the breed. This indicates both improving physical skills & improved intelligence - hardly representative of breeding the dogs to death. I do understand for dogs not required to conduct strenuous physical activities which require advanced intellectual capacity, there may well not be any test means of proving the results of breeding other than the inadequate reliance upon appearance, but at least with field Labs who are competing in field events there is a very objective means of proving the breedings being done.
    David Didier, GA

  2. #62
    Senior Member polmaise's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Stirling Scotland
    Posts
    717

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Granddaddy View Post
    I suppose we can argue & each can feel whoever posts last wins. But obviously the abnormalities are not universal in the face of an adequate gene pool - as I previously stated. And while you give examples of breeds where there have been problems & breeders who are unscrupulous, they do not represent the normal or the majority of breeders of pure bred dogs. Using the Labrador Retriever & field bred Labs in particular as an example, our field bred dogs are performing today at their highest levels in the history of the breed. This indicates both improving physical skills & improved intelligence - hardly representative of breeding the dogs to death. I do understand for dogs not required to conduct strenuous physical activities which require advanced intellectual capacity, there may well not be any test means of proving the results of breeding other than the inadequate reliance upon appearance, but at least with field Labs who are competing in field events there is a very objective means of proving the breedings being done.
    Easy Tiger!?..I am not arguing. I'm advocating that while there are standards set by a recognised body that breeders and judges follow, and the achievements by title are awarded to that standard ,then the overall standard and the gene pool is polarised to that standard!..not mine or perhaps not yours?..but the standard none the less!..The Labrador retriever breed is not immune to this!,by way of field competence,or achievement!..Just a ''heads up'', that this also drives the breed to where it is?.(mate)
    One Shooter One Spaniel One Retriever

  3. #63
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Grantville GA
    Posts
    2,204

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by polmaise View Post
    Easy Tiger!?..I am not arguing. I'm advocating that while there are standards set by a recognised body that breeders and judges follow, and the achievements by title are awarded to that standard ,then the overall standard and the gene pool is polarised to that standard!..not mine or perhaps not yours?..but the standard none the less!..The Labrador retriever breed is not immune to this!,by way of field competence,or achievement!..Just a ''heads up'', that this also drives the breed to where it is?.(mate)
    Easy Tiger, you are arguing & by linking a biased video without further comment you are advocating as you state, for that bias. Again the facts are that most breeds & most breeders do not breed in such an unscrupulous manner as to throw away pups who don't meet a desired trait. In fact most breeding are not single trait targeted at all. I can understand if appearance alone becomes the focus of breeding then there can be some narrowing of the gene pool used by a certain or small group of breeders. That said, one or a small group of breeders cannot have such a universal affect on most breeds, and certainly not the Labrador Retriever with its wide-spread popularity. If the logic of your linked video was followed to its logical end, every wild animal in the world would be considered "bred to death" given that most wild breedings are done only by the strongest & most fit - with the vast majority of the male breed pool never getting an opportunity to breed at all.

    Sure your video linked shows just what we should all already know, that there are the immoral & unscrupulous among us. There are those who are so determined to win that they will break all the rules to attempt to reach their goals - or they are so ignorant that the results of their efforts are evident. But we cannot take the exceptions and without question take them as the rule.
    David Didier, GA

  4. #64
    Senior Member polmaise's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Stirling Scotland
    Posts
    717

    Default

    It's not My video !
    and I ain't arguing!
    ?
    "I can understand if appearance alone becomes the focus of breeding then there can be some narrowing of the gene pool used by a certain or small group of breeder"
    Are you a breeder?.or a Judge?, or both? or neither?
    One Shooter One Spaniel One Retriever

  5. #65
    Senior Member windycanyon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    WA State
    Posts
    3,688

    Default

    David, I'd love to see some photos of Stella! Best of luck w/ the breeding as it sounds exciting. Anne



    Quote Originally Posted by Granddaddy View Post
    I'd love to have such "accidents"........

    And an oh by the way, in my Stella's upcoming litter 12 gen pedigree, I found Grangmeade Precocious (110x), Freehaven Muscles (60x), Grangemead Sharon (89x) - and some other Grangemead dogs too. Other dual champs in the pedigree include Little Pierre of Deer Creek (152x), Shed of Arden (163x), Cherokee Buck (69x) & Bracken's Sweep (95x). Taking Stella as typical of pedigree's of many of today's FCs, I think it would be better to start with a current FC, if the intent is to replicate the conformation of our prior dual champions. And just to add, Stella has a wonderful coat (almost seems too dense and thick).

  6. #66
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Grantville GA
    Posts
    2,204

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by polmaise View Post
    It's not My video !
    and I ain't arguing!
    ?
    "I can understand if appearance alone becomes the focus of breeding then there can be some narrowing of the gene pool used by a certain or small group of breeder"
    Are you a breeder?.or a Judge?, or both? or neither?
    Yes & yes...........and also a handler who has provided part of the training of my dogs who have earned titles for their work, since you have inquired.
    David Didier, GA

  7. #67
    Senior Member polmaise's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Stirling Scotland
    Posts
    717

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Granddaddy View Post
    Yes & yes...........and also a handler who has provided part of the training of my dogs who have earned titles for their work, since you have inquired.
    You'll be in a position to change it then?
    Or not.
    One Shooter One Spaniel One Retriever

  8. #68
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Grantville GA
    Posts
    2,204

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by polmaise View Post
    You'll be in a position to change it then?
    Or not.

    Change what, don't be so cryptic........
    David Didier, GA

  9. #69
    Senior Member txrancher's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    NE Texas & NC coast
    Posts
    275

    Default

    It appears to me that the show dog has undergone the most drastic change of appearance due to breeder selection for the flavor of the week. The field lab has evolved from selection based upon form and function to retrieve ducks and geese and even the occasional swan, therefore the longer muzzle and legs perhaps? Is one more Labrador Retriever than the other? Perhaps not, but will continued breeding selections create a show type dog known as the Labrador and the field type dog eventually be called a black, yellow or chocolate Retriever? We have seen the Irish Setter (show dog ) that couldn't find a bird if it had to and now we are seeing the Red Setter (field dog) surface where again they are bred to hunt. I feel the change in appearance has been the result of judges selecting dogs that were perhaps outside the breed standard. One solution could be, until they can attain a performance title (JH minimum) not be allowed to attain a CH title, then maybe we could put some show titles on the field bred dogs. I have seen the so-called fads come and go in horses and dogs over the years but as breeders maybe it is time for everyone to give some thought to what their breeding will produce! The most rewarding thing I and one of my dogs attained were the words from and elderly judge a few years back that simply said, "that's a mighty fine dog you've got there young man."
    Last edited by txrancher; 05-16-2013 at 05:04 PM.
    I ignore stupidity unless you bring it to my attention!
    Crystal Coast Labradors

    CCL Return To Sender
    N Sana Te

  10. #70
    Senior Member copterdoc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    NW IL
    Posts
    2,301

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by polmaise View Post
    Instead of spending an hour speculating and typing!..spend some time having a look at this.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZMegQH1SPg
    That was an hour long heavily biased expose, that boils down to an end result that we need to select for function.

    A working dog's active career, is the ultimate test of ability and fitness.
    There's no amount of health testing and clearance certificates that can match it.

    When we select for certain traits, we are forced to select against others. What traits we select for, are a matter of where our priorities lay.

    A Retriever is what it DOES. Not what it looks like. Form really does follow function.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •