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Thread: Retired gun marks: to handle, or not handle, during training

  1. #41
    Senior Member Gun_Dog2002's Avatar
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    The point being there is no single answer. It's an art. I will jot down thoughts on the plane and will share

    /paul
    Paul Cantrell
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  2. #42
    Senior Member mitty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gun_Dog2002 View Post
    Im on my phone in an airport going to judge a hunt test across the country. Ill give you a full answer to your questions later and could write pages on this topic. As a pro trainer I get to work with a fair share if dogs. If it helps I just turned 44 and I got my first open win at 13. I ran a few dogs since then.

    /paul
    Thanks for your service to the sport, Paul.

    I look forward to your full answer next week.
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  3. #43
    Senior Member mitty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MooseGooser View Post
    I there a "wrong side" of a retired gun?

    Is the AOF greatly larger with a long memory bird that is retired?

    I would think the "Handling woud be used for factors avoided in route to AOF..

    If teaching a young dog the concept of retired guns, it would make sense to me to begin with a shorter distance,,with very few factors in route,
    Make the mark TOTALLY about the guy deciding to sit down and hide, then as the dog starts to "get it" add different things in route.

    If dog has touble then, have BB stand up, maybe fake a throw,, and THEN dont be afeared to repeat..... the same mark

    Dont be John Wayne,,,

    Gooser
    Seriously, Gooser? You want to argue semantics or jargon, but clearly you knew what I meant. Just like I usually know what you mean despite bad grammar, bad spelling and unconventional use of commas.
    Renee P

  4. #44
    Senior Member MooseGooser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mitty View Post
    Seriously, Gooser? You want to argue semantics or jargon, but clearly you knew what I meant. Just like I usually know what you mean despite bad grammar, bad spelling and unconventional use of commas.

    No!

    serious question!

    .........,,,,,,,,,????????!!!!!!!
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  5. #45
    Senior Member mitty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MooseGooser View Post
    No!

    serious question!

    .........,,,,,,,,,????????!!!!!!!
    Maybe you should do a poll!
    Renee P

  6. #46
    Senior Member mitty's Avatar
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    In case it matters, I was thinking about the advanced FT dog when I started this thread. I am not wondering how to teach retired guns to a young dog.

    I'm thinking of the advanced dog who is proficient at running a triple with 2 retired guns and is coming along at fighting factors. Now the dog is doing sets of cheaty water marks etc. with retired guns.

    Guns out or retired, it is very difficult to figure out sometimes if dog is caving to a factor or just figuring stuff out.

    Yesterday I handled on a mark cuz I thought my dog was cheating water, but as soon as I tooted my whistle I saw I was mistaken. She was tricked by the bird placement. I still hate myself!!!
    Last edited by mitty; 05-16-2013 at 03:06 PM.
    Renee P

  7. #47
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    "Guns out or retired, it is very difficult to figure out sometimes if dog is caving to a factor or just figuring stuff out."

    When we set up a test we are supposed to know what the factor(s) are as well as having defined the concept(s). If you have a well defined factor and the dog goes off course ahead of that factor, you should stop the dog as soon as you see (or better yet read) the deviation and handle, regardless of what the concept is. If there is no apparent factor and dog is "just figuring stuff out", you may reasonably conclude; a) you have a concept which is beyond the dog's level of training, b) you may have a factor at play which you are not cognizant of c) you have reached beyond the level of the dog...this happens, dogs do get washed out as candidates for the level you aspire to

    If the test truly has no factors or the dog succeeds on them and lines reasonably well to the area of the fall but hunts short/deep, gets lost etc. use gunner help. If the dog appears to know where it is going when being sent but goes out on wrong line, or goes out and changes direction toward another destination, call back and get gunner to re-appear and assist in any way required before sending your dog again. If the dog now succeeds you can wipe brow and cross c) (from above) off the to do list...for today.
    Last edited by blind ambition; 05-16-2013 at 04:05 PM.
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  8. #48
    Senior Member Howard N's Avatar
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    Yesterday I handled on a mark cuz I thought my dog was cheating water, but as soon as I tooted my whistle I saw I was mistaken. She was tricked by the bird placement. I still hate myself!!!
    Why hate yourself? You had a dog who was fooled by the bird placement. You handled to show her where it was, no hate necessary, you were helping your dog, even better if there was a potential water cheat in the equation. When something like that happens, I like to repeat the mark and I'll almost always throw a couple of diversions off the line to make it a memory bird. The dog knows where it's at and how to get there so she should have a successful repetition of something she failed before and now knows how to do.

    I don't know what the people who don't repeat would do.
    Howard Niemi

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  9. #49
    Senior Member duk4me's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pals View Post
    /paul was just pointing out that you can't train a dog from videos, in his own helpyhelpperson way. Have to actually, you know, get your hands dirty so to speak. This has been an interesting thread, lots of good information to be had.

    Featherquest is a female, not a boy boys.
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  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by MooseGooser View Post
    I there a "wrong side" of a retired gun?
    This is a question that gets asked ad nauseum in some shape, form or fashion. You hear at FT, "fido hooked the long retired." to which I always replay "How can you hook something that isn't there?"

    I have known judges to drop dogs for hooking retired guns, or hunting the "wrong side" of a retired gun (not for the length of the hunt or 2 hunts, but for hooking it, or hutning on the wrong side).

    I don't. But that is just me.
    Susan

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