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Thread: Retired gun marks: to handle, or not handle, during training

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by mitty;1104731[B
    ]If dog needs handling on way to mark, gun retired, does the dog learn anything about marking?[/B]

    I'm wondering if there is any point to having the gun retire, if you end up handling the dog to the mark.

    Thoughts?

    (I'm thinking of field trials.)
    Handling at the correct time on a mark I believe teaches a dog a great deal about marking. This requires a sound handling dog though.
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  2. #52
    Senior Member Pals's Avatar
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    LOVE me some Howard.

    There are some jewels in this thread, hard earned bits of wisdom.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeff evans View Post
    Handling at the correct time on a mark I believe teaches a dog a great deal about marking. This requires a sound handling dog though.
    I believe that handling on a mark does none thing but teaching the dog the line...It teaches the correct way or route to the fall...If you handle on a mark ,you never for sure if the dog would have gotten it with out your help....The cheating of cover may have caused the dog to get lost ..thus no mark ....The only way to know for sure if the dog remembers a retired mark is to just let the dog run as you would do on test day ...no intervention ...The dog shows it's weakness and strengths on test day where it is totally up to the dog ..and ...then we go home and train on those weakness that the dog revealed....Steve S
    "Your dog learns as much by doing his work right,by your praise and encouragement, as he does by your displeasure and correction." DLWalters

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Howard N View Post
    Why hate yourself? You had a dog who was fooled by the bird placement. You handled to show her where it was, no hate necessary, you were helping your dog, even better if there was a potential water cheat in the equation. When something like that happens, I like to repeat the mark and I'll almost always throw a couple of diversions off the line to make it a memory bird. The dog knows where it's at and how to get there so she should have a successful repetition of something she failed before and now knows how to do.

    I don't know what the people who don't repeat would do.
    Good post. I agree.

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pals View Post
    LOVE me some Howard.

    There are some jewels in this thread, hard earned bits of wisdom.
    Huh?? I let my fingers overload my brain and write a huge run on sentence, then get some love for it???
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    get your dog out and TRAIN! caryalsobrook 2013

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Howard N View Post
    I don't know what the people who don't repeat would do.
    Fail or send the dog to someone who knows how to train a dog!!
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  7. #57
    Senior Member Breck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve schreiner View Post
    I believe that handling on a mark does none thing but teaching the dog the line...It teaches the correct way or route to the fall...If you handle on a mark ,you never for sure if the dog would have gotten it with out your help....The cheating of cover may have caused the dog to get lost ..thus no mark ....The only way to know for sure if the dog remembers a retired mark is to just let the dog run as you would do on test day ...no intervention ...The dog shows it's weakness and strengths on test day where it is totally up to the dog ..and ...then we go home and train on those weakness that the dog revealed....Steve S
    .
    Why even bother training if you're not going to maintain even the most basic of standards.
    You're actually gonna stand there and watch your dog cheat just to see if it throws him off the mark. Then rely on running tests to figure out what the dog hasn't learned?
    No I've heard everything.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Breck View Post
    .
    Why even bother training if you're not going to maintain even the most basic of standards.
    You're actually gonna stand there and watch your dog cheat just to see if it throws him off the mark. Then rely on running tests to figure out what the dog hasn't learned?
    No I've heard everything.
    This goes right to something I see all the time. People testing thier dog and not understanding what it takes to train a dog. I think most people don't get it. If the training has been done correctly up front there is no need to test a dog during training. You should be evaluating the dog while training. This tread has been very interestng. I think the person who start this and asked the question, should of ask "How Do I Train a Dog to Mark Retired Guns" that would actually alleviate a lot of the question about when too or when not too handle.
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  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Boy View Post
    This goes right to something I see all the time. People testing thier dog and not understanding what it takes to train a dog. I think most people don't get it. If the training has been done correctly up front there is no need to test a dog during training. You should be evaluating the dog while training. This tread has been very interestng. I think the person who start this and asked the question, should of ask "How Do I Train a Dog to Mark Retired Guns" that would actually alleviate a lot of the question about when too or when not too handle.
    But that's not the question I have.

    Steve Schreiner actually wrote exactly what I was wondering about. Once you handle dog enroute to mark, haven't you told dog where the mark is? And once you've told dog where the mark is, what is the point of keeping the gun retired?

    I can see the handle for obvious stuff like dodging water, but sometimes I wonder if handlers aren't providing the dog with too much info by handling enroute to the mark, totally defeating the purpose of having the gun retire.
    Renee P

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve schreiner View Post
    I believe that handling on a mark does none thing but teaching the dog the line...It teaches the correct way or route to the fall...If you handle on a mark ,you never for sure if the dog would have gotten it with out your help....The cheating of cover may have caused the dog to get lost ..thus no mark ....The only way to know for sure if the dog remembers a retired mark is to just let the dog run as you would do on test day ...no intervention ...The dog shows it's weakness and strengths on test day where it is totally up to the dog ..and ...then we go home and train on those weakness that the dog revealed....Steve S
    But that is exactly what training is supposed to do. It teaches by repetition the manner in which a mark is supposed to be retrieved (in this case). This does not mean repeat the same mark necessarily but is does mean that a good trainer will consistently teach (not punish) his dog in a similar way whenever the dog encounters the same conditions. And as for running straight lines, it provides the best potential for a successful mark. Successful dogs in FTs generally run very nice lines to their marks & are not overly influenced by the factors along the way. But there is always a balance that must be considered also. A good trainer learns when to handle & when not to handle (both in training & & at trials). A dog out of balance might more readily pop at one extreme or become so focused upon running a a straight line that his memory suffers. Either can lead to marking failure. So a good trainer does all things in moderation to maintain a balanced dog that learns over time the proper techniques to have consistent success. A dog out of balance can lose focus that retrieving the mark is the goal & become instead focused on not making a mistake, so it might pop, no-go, run straight but not retrieve - and most importantly disassociate from memory & marking & just follow directions from the handler.
    David Didier, GA

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