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Thread: Retired gun marks: to handle, or not handle, during training

  1. #61
    Senior Member MooseGooser's Avatar
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    I like Grandddys post above.

    So, If you think about it, the dog really gets the basics of running a retired gun LONG before he may see one, IF, you stay consistent on paying attention to what you do at the line with the dog, and how you have him set up,, and then having a consistent standard of handling to encourage the dog to run straight at the fall teaching this standard when guns are out and visible..

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    Senior Member Breck's Avatar
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    Mitty
    As far as handling =showing dog where mark is, No.
    If you handle too close to the gun or fall area, YES.
    So, figure out where during the course of a mark it would be beneficial to handle if warranted and at what point along the way, if you were asleep at the wheel, it's essentially too late to handle as dog is now in caution zone for handling.
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  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve schreiner View Post
    I believe that handling on a mark does none thing but teaching the dog the line...It teaches the correct way or route to the fall... Precisely, and a trained skill a FT retriever must have. If you handle on a mark ,you never for sure if the dog would have gotten it with out your help....The cheating of cover may have caused the dog to get lost ..thus no mark ....The only way to know for sure if the dog remembers a retired mark is to just let the dog run as you would do on test day Yeah but were training, I am having difficulty picturing someone watch the dog run aroung a factor in training and then expect them to run straight on game day, not sound training advise IMOP. Whether you handle, or walk out to the dog and simplify, but never let them run around and get rewarded with a bird in training. ...no intervention ...The dog shows it's weakness and strengths on test day where it is totally up to the dog ..and ...then we go home and train on those weakness that the dog revealed The dog already showed you his weakness in training....Steve S


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  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeff evans View Post
    my responses in red
    Quote Originally Posted by steve schreiner View Post
    I believe that handling on a mark does none thing but teaching the dog the line...It teaches the correct way or route to the fall... Precisely, and a trained skill a FT retriever must have. If you handle on a mark ,you never for sure if the dog would have gotten it with out your help....The cheating of cover may have caused the dog to get lost ..thus no mark ....The only way to know for sure if the dog remembers a retired mark is to just let the dog run as you would do on test day Yeah but were training, I am having difficulty picturing someone watch the dog run aroung a factor in training and then expect them to run straight on game day, not sound training advise IMOP. Whether you handle, or walk out to the dog and simplify, but never let them run around and get rewarded with a bird in training. ...no intervention ...The dog shows it's weakness and strengths on test day where it is totally up to the dog ..and ...then we go home and train on those weakness that the dog revealed The dog already showed you his weakness in training....Steve S

    It seems there is some confusion in what I was trying to convey....!st red comment ...I agree ...that is what we are all striving to do ..teach the dog to take a straight line to the fall or the blind...This is done through training ( teaching is a better word to describe the process) in my opinion...
    In training we find the weakness of the dog by doing the same thing we do on test day ...stand and watch the dog perform and evaluate the results....Then we work on building the weakness ..You must know( identify) the weakness before you can improve on it ...An example : 2 down the shore ,dog gets 1st one fine , goes for second on banks early ...Is the dog returning to the old fall or just cheating the bank and actually knows where the bird is ? We have to let the dog show us then we can adjust our training to over come the issue...don't just make an assumption on what the dog is doing ....The dog will never perform better on test day than on training day with out proper teaching .... The original post was about handling on a retired gun ..All I am saying is if you do handle you will never know for sure if the dog remembered the mark....What are we working on in this training set up ? marking or running a line ...? If we want to see if the dog remembers the mark, I say let the dog go and see..Then we can come back and work on the cover issue later ...If you want and have time , just repeat the mark as a single and this time show the dog how to run the line...repeat until the dog will run it without the cheat or until you run out of dog...Then set it up some place else...I believe this is the down fall of a lot of training , we forget the true objective of what we are trying to accomplish...Yes ,some times things fall apart to the point we have to go the plane B and forget the original intent...

    Do you never test before going to an event ? I want my dogs to show me their true behaviors before I go and spend several hundred on a weekend trip...The old statement of teach - train - test -( at home )then go pay your money and run is the way I look at it... Steve S
    Last edited by steve schreiner; 05-17-2013 at 02:17 PM.
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  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve schreiner View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by steve schreiner View Post
    I believe that handling on a mark does none thing but teaching the dog the line...It teaches the correct way or route to the fall... Precisely, and a trained skill a FT retriever must have. If you handle on a mark ,you never for sure if the dog would have gotten it with out your help....The cheating of cover may have caused the dog to get lost ..thus no mark ....The only way to know for sure if the dog remembers a retired mark is to just let the dog run as you would do on test day Yeah but were training, I am having difficulty picturing someone watch the dog run aroung a factor in training and then expect them to run straight on game day, not sound training advise IMOP. Whether you handle, or walk out to the dog and simplify, but never let them run around and get rewarded with a bird in training. ...no intervention ...The dog shows it's weakness and strengths on test day where it is totally up to the dog ..and ...then we go home and train on those weakness that the dog revealed The dog already showed you his weakness in training....Steve S

    It seems there is some confusion in what I was trying to convey....!st red comment ...I agree ...that is what we are all striving to do ..teach the dog to take a straight line to the fall or the blind...This is done through training ( teaching is a better word to describe the process) in my opinion...
    In training we find the weakness of the dog by doing the same thing we do on test day ...stand and watch the dog perform and evaluate the results....Then we work on building the weakness ..You must know( identify) the weakness before you can improve on it ...An example : 2 down the shore ,dog gets 1st one fine , goes for second on banks early ...Is the dog returning to the old fall or just cheating the bank and actually knows where the bird is ? We have to let the dog show us then we can adjust our training to over come the issue...don't just make an assumption on what the dog is doing ....The dog will never perform better on test day than on training day with out proper teaching .... The original post was about handling on a retired gun ..All I am saying is if you do handle you will never know for sure if the dog remembered the mark....What are we working on in this training set up ? marking or running a line ...? If we want to see if the dog remembers the mark, I say let the dog go and see..Then we can come back and work on the cover issue later ...If you want and have time , just repeat the mark as a single and this time show the dog how to run the line...repeat until the dog will run it without the cheat or until you run out of dog...Then set it up some place else...I believe this is the down fall of a lot of training , we forget the true objective of what we are trying to accomplish...Yes ,some times things fall apart to the point we have to go the plane B and forget the original intent...

    Do you never test before going to an event ? I want my dogs to show me their true behaviors before I go and spend several hundred on a weekend trip...The old statement of teach - train - test -( at home )then go pay your money and run is the way I look at it... Steve S
    While I think most of us test in training even without that being our intention, I don't generally think it is a good idea except when we are possibly stretching the application of training, as we might for a young transition dog. And I also don't think it necessarily good to see what the dog is going to do of its own tendencies. Using your example of two down the shore (I've already taught the dog to run straight at marks on land & already handled, as a correction routine, if the dog is going to backside a gun, or use gun help to keep the dog on the proper side of a gun), I would not let the dog show me what he is going to do by banking early. Instead I would consistently handle the dog at the first instance of the dog turning to the shore to change the dog's mind & intent. And by doing this consistently, repetitiously the dog learns to stay in the water & maintain a straight line to the mark, i.e., the dog builds a habit of doing the correct action. This two-down-the-shore is a typical derby setup & I just won't enter my derby dog until he shows consistently that he will swim past that short mark (already retrieved) & past the gun to the long mark, otherwise you are undoing the training & letting the dog know trials are different & training doesn't apply at trials. A dog learns by doing things right consistently & consistently being corrected to require a right action when he doesn't make the right decision. Allowing a dog to do the wrong thing rather than correcting at the first instance of a wrong decision just confuses the dog & makes unclear the right choice.
    David Didier, GA

  6. #66
    Senior Member Bridget Bodine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gun_Dog2002 View Post
    The point being there is no single answer. It's an art. I will jot down thoughts on the plane and will share

    /paul
    now he sounds like copterdoc...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bridget Bodine View Post
    now he sounds like copterdoc...
    I don't think I've been so insulted

    /paul
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  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gun_Dog2002 View Post
    I don't think I've been so insulted

    /paul
    You didn't deserve that.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Granddaddy View Post
    While I think most of us test in training even without that being our intention,agreed ... I don't generally think it is a good idea except when we are possibly stretching the application of training, as we might for a young transition dog.As when wondering if the dog knows where the retired mark is ... And I also don't think it necessarily good to see what the dog is going to do of its own tendencies. Using your example of two down the shore (I've already taught the dog to run straight at marks on land & already handled, as a correction routine, if the dog is going to backside a gun, or use gun help to keep the dog on the proper side of a gun), I would not let the dog show me what he is going to do by banking early. Instead I would consistently handle the dog at the first instance of the dog turning to the shore to change the dog's mind & intent. And by doing this consistently, repetitiously the dog learns to stay in the water & maintain a straight line to the mark, i.e., the dog builds a habit of doing the correct action.agreed .. This two-down-the-shore is a typical derby setup & I just won't enter my derby dog until he shows consistently that he will swim past that short mark so you are testing with each set up if you don't handle? Inadvertently as you said we so often do, each thrown mark or blind run begins as a test to see what the dog will reveal to us...(already retrieved) & past the gun to the long mark, otherwise you are undoing the training & letting the dog know trials are different & training doesn't apply at trials. A dog learns by doing things right consistently & consistently being corrected to require a right action when he doesn't make the right decision. Allowing a dog to do the wrong thing rather than correcting at the first instance of a wrong decision just confuses the dog & makes unclear the right choice.
    What you have said is very good logic...I agree on the training you have described ...I assume you would recommend to the OP that they handle on the cover cheat...Correct ? My question is then did the dog know where the bird was...? OR.. did your intervention have an influence on the dog.? Steve S my comments in red .... [/I]
    Last edited by steve schreiner; 05-17-2013 at 10:48 PM.
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  10. #70
    Senior Member Bridget Bodine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gun_Dog2002 View Post
    I don't think I've been so insulted

    /paul
    sorry...it just slipped out.....
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    Glendair's Come Home to the Sea ( By Ch Topform's Edward MH, QAA)
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