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Thread: Retired gun marks: to handle, or not handle, during training

  1. #71
    Senior Member mitty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve schreiner View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by steve schreiner View Post
    I believe that handling on a mark does none thing but teaching the dog the line...It teaches the correct way or route to the fall... Precisely, and a trained skill a FT retriever must have. If you handle on a mark ,you never for sure if the dog would have gotten it with out your help....The cheating of cover may have caused the dog to get lost ..thus no mark ....The only way to know for sure if the dog remembers a retired mark is to just let the dog run as you would do on test day Yeah but were training, I am having difficulty picturing someone watch the dog run aroung a factor in training and then expect them to run straight on game day, not sound training advise IMOP. Whether you handle, or walk out to the dog and simplify, but never let them run around and get rewarded with a bird in training. ...no intervention ...The dog shows it's weakness and strengths on test day where it is totally up to the dog ..and ...then we go home and train on those weakness that the dog revealed The dog already showed you his weakness in training....Steve S

    It seems there is some confusion in what I was trying to convey....!st red comment ...I agree ...that is what we are all striving to do ..teach the dog to take a straight line to the fall or the blind...This is done through training ( teaching is a better word to describe the process) in my opinion...
    In training we find the weakness of the dog by doing the same thing we do on test day ...stand and watch the dog perform and evaluate the results....Then we work on building the weakness ..You must know( identify) the weakness before you can improve on it ...An example : 2 down the shore ,dog gets 1st one fine , goes for second on banks early ...Is the dog returning to the old fall or just cheating the bank and actually knows where the bird is ? We have to let the dog show us then we can adjust our training to over come the issue...don't just make an assumption on what the dog is doing ....The dog will never perform better on test day than on training day with out proper teaching .... The original post was about handling on a retired gun ..All I am saying is if you do handle you will never know for sure if the dog remembered the mark....What are we working on in this training set up ? marking or running a line ...? If we want to see if the dog remembers the mark, I say let the dog go and see..Then we can come back and work on the cover issue later ...If you want and have time , just repeat the mark as a single and this time show the dog how to run the line...repeat until the dog will run it without the cheat or until you run out of dog...Then set it up some place else...I believe this is the down fall of a lot of training , we forget the true objective of what we are trying to accomplish...Yes ,some times things fall apart to the point we have to go the plane B and forget the original intent...

    Do you never test before going to an event ? I want my dogs to show me their true behaviors before I go and spend several hundred on a weekend trip...The old statement of teach - train - test -( at home )then go pay your money and run is the way I look at it... Steve S
    To me, this example is a no brainer handling decision (bolding mine).

    Dog needs to learn to swim past the 1st gunner, so if dog beaches early because it is lost then you handle to teach dog the 2 down the shore concept. Here you are teaching dog where to look for the mark.

    Or if dog beaches early because it is cheating, then you handle to teach it not to.

    The question is whether dog should get reprimanded. If it is cheating, yes, if it is lost, no.

    I would not intentionally let my dog return to an old fall, or beach early.
    Last edited by mitty; 05-18-2013 at 12:23 PM.
    Renee P

  2. #72
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    Regarding tow down the shore and when to handle, Dennis Voigt has an excellent in a past issue of ROL.
    Tom Dorroh

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    Quote Originally Posted by steve schreiner View Post
    What you have said is very good logic...I agree on the training you have described ...I assume you would recommend to the OP that they handle on the cover cheat...Correct ? My question is then did the dog know where the bird was...? OR.. did your intervention have an influence on the dog.? Steve S my comments in red .... [/I]
    To your red comments within my previous comment, maybe it's semantics but I don't like to let a dog show what it intends to do on a 2-down-the-shore setup. I prefer to handle as soon as the dog makes it's first move to the shore while in the water if it is short of the long gun (in the example I gave). And I would do that consistently in training that dog for it's entire competitive life when it encounters a down-the-shore mark. Once the dog has been taught the correct line to a down the shore mark, then I will not only handle but I also eventually nick the dog before I cast, again assuming the dog has been previously taught the correct line to a down the shore bird. But considering that a dog might not remember the mark if retired I have to also consider where the dog is in its level of training.

    IF the young dog has been taught to run through cover, then yes I would handle. If the young dog has not been taught how to deal with that factor then I would have preferred to not run where that factor was in play, assuming the mark itself was the focus. To your 2nd question, I can't assume anything. If I handle because the dog avoided a factor then the factor becomes the primary consideration, the mark itself becomes secondary so I would probably use gun help to get the dog to the AOF if by handling through the cover it caused the dog's focus to change. Virtually anytime your handle to get a correct response to a factor, retrieving the actual mark will become secondary.
    David Didier, GA

  4. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by mitty View Post
    To me, this example is a no brainer handling decision (bolding mine).

    Dog needs to learn to swim past the 1st gunner, so if dog beaches early because it is lost then you handle to teach dog the 2 down the shore concept. Here you are teaching dog where to look for the mark.

    Or if dog beaches early because it is cheating, then you handle to teach it not to.

    The question is whether dog should get reprimanded. If it is cheating, yes, if it is lost, no.

    I would not intentionally let my dog return to an old fall, or beach early.
    Actually Renee, IMO if you let the dog beach it's too late. You need to make the correction before the dog beaches...you need to make the correction with the first indication of the dog's intent to beach but before he is out of the water. As for comment on a collar correction/reprimanded, I would agree but also add, I would like to think I would also never use a collar correction if a dog had not previously been taught the correct response either through a drill or attrition. And concerning teaching, you are not only teaching the dog where to look for the mark but the correct line to get there. BUT BY ALL MEANS DO NOT TAKE THIS TRAINING REGIMENT AS A JUDGING CRITERIA. YOU DO NOT JUDGE LINES TO A MARK INSTEAD YOU JUDGE THE HUNT OR LACK OF IT. LINES ONLY COME INTO PLAY IF TWO DOGS HAVE NO HUNT TO JUDGE & ONLY THEN IF THE LINES ARE SO DIVERSE AS TO HAVING ONE DOG DISTURB TOO MUCH COVER IN-ROUTE TO THE MARK.
    David Didier, GA

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    Quote Originally Posted by mitty View Post
    To me, this example is a no brainer handling decision (bolding mine).

    Dog needs to learn to swim past the 1st gunner, so if dog beaches early because it is lost then you handle to teach dog the 2 down the shore concept. Here you are teaching dog where to look for the mark.

    Or if dog beaches early because it is cheating, then you handle to teach it not to.

    The question is whether dog should get reprimanded. If it is cheating, yes, if it is lost, no.

    I would not intentionally let my dog return to an old fall, or beach early.

    How will you know if the dog is cheating or lost? Steve S
    "Your dog learns as much by doing his work right,by your praise and encouragement, as he does by your displeasure and correction." DLWalters

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    Senior Member mitty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Granddaddy View Post
    Actually Renee, IMO if you let the dog beach it's too late. You need to make the correction before the dog beaches...you need to make the correction with the first indication of the dog's intent to beach but before he is out of the water. As for comment on a collar correction/reprimanded, I would agree but also add, I would like to think I would also never use a collar correction if a dog had not previously been taught the correct response either through a drill or attrition. And concerning teaching, you are not only teaching the dog where to look for the mark but the correct line to get there. BUT BY ALL MEANS DO NOT TAKE THIS TRAINING REGIMENT AS A JUDGING CRITERIA. YOU DO NOT JUDGE LINES TO A MARK INSTEAD YOU JUDGE THE HUNT OR LACK OF IT. LINES ONLY COME INTO PLAY IF TWO DOGS HAVE NO HUNT TO JUDGE & ONLY THEN IF THE LINES ARE SO DIVERSE AS TO HAVING ONE DOG DISTURB TOO MUCH COVER IN-ROUTE TO THE MARK.
    Thanks, Granddaddy. That's what I meant---I should have written that I would handle if dog LOOKS like it is going to beach early.
    Renee P

  7. #77
    Senior Member mitty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve schreiner View Post
    How will you know if the dog is cheating or lost? Steve S
    I guess that is where "read the dog" comes into play.

    Edit: If dog starts heading for shore early, and continues on after bird boy "hey heys" you have a clue.

    I'm categorizing bird boy help as a handle...not sure what the jargon is.

    Either way (dog lost or cheating), its a handle.
    Last edited by mitty; 05-18-2013 at 02:39 PM.
    Renee P

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas D View Post
    Regarding tow down the shore and when to handle, Dennis Voigt has an excellent in a past issue of ROL.
    Do you know which issue?
    Renee P

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    Quote Originally Posted by mitty View Post
    I guess that is where "read the dog" comes into play.

    Edit: If dog starts heading for shore early, and continues on after bird boy "hey heys" you have a clue.

    I'm categorizing bird boy help as a handle...not sure what the jargon is.

    Either way, its a handle.
    we read the intent as to beach early correctly, but we will not know if it is a cheat , lost ,giving to the wind or rtof unless we let the dog provide us with that info.....That is all I'm saying ..I would address the issue then based on that info ...inquiring minds want to know ...Steve S
    "Your dog learns as much by doing his work right,by your praise and encouragement, as he does by your displeasure and correction." DLWalters

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    Quote Originally Posted by Granddaddy View Post
    Actually Renee, IMO if you let the dog beach it's too late. You need to make the correction before the dog beaches...you need to make the correction with the first indication of the dog's intent to beach but before he is out of the water. As for comment on a collar correction/reprimanded, I would agree but also add, I would like to think I would also never use a collar correction if a dog had not previously been taught the correct response either through a drill or attrition. And concerning teaching, you are not only teaching the dog where to look for the mark but the correct line to get there. BUT BY ALL MEANS DO NOT TAKE THIS TRAINING REGIMENT AS A JUDGING CRITERIA. YOU DO NOT JUDGE LINES TO A MARK INSTEAD YOU JUDGE THE HUNT OR LACK OF IT. LINES ONLY COME INTO PLAY IF TWO DOGS HAVE NO HUNT TO JUDGE & ONLY THEN IF THE LINES ARE SO DIVERSE AS TO HAVING ONE DOG DISTURB TOO MUCH COVER IN-ROUTE TO THE MARK.


    There is much discussion on judging lines instead of just the mark...a mark is a mark if the dog knows where it is going...Steve S
    "Your dog learns as much by doing his work right,by your praise and encouragement, as he does by your displeasure and correction." DLWalters

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