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The "walk-off"

17K views 73 replies 42 participants last post by  i_willie12 
#1 ·
Any judges here ever have a handler come up, watch the marks go down and then leash up their pooch and walk-off without picking up a bird (out of protest)?
 
#4 ·
In my case it wasn't the test, it was the ridiculous things the judge told me before being able to run the test. Like confontationally telling me that I needed to take my knife out of my pocket and my keys off my belt, because the dog would see these items as tools for applying force. The insinuation was that I was trying to cheat.

You hit your dog with your keys? Go after it with a pocketknife? Sheesh.
 
#5 · (Edited)
Happens frequently & can be a decision of last resort to cure or control a creeping dog. I know a current successful FT handler who did this with one of his dogs for 3 trials in a row (both open & Am) several years ago. He told the judges prior to coming to the line his intentions (that if his dog crept he would not pick up the marks). He had been doing this with consistent success in training with no creeping only to have his trial-wise dog creep at trials. So he instituted the same practice at the 3 trials...and it worked. I think he had to do remedial work from time to time at a trial (maybe in the open) then run the Am. But it kept his dog guessing & kept the creeping under control. The dog retired an FC/AFC with several nat'ls run.

When judging the Jacksonville trial this spring we had another handler do the same thing.

Have never seen it as an effort to show-up the judges, but that could clearly be a misconduct issue if so. If the judges setup a valid test per the rules, IMO it would be very poor sportsmanship to not run the marks. If the test is not valid per the rules or considered dangerous, there is recourse under the rules for the handler.
 
#7 ·
I've done it a handful of times for a creeping issue but never to show up judges. That is in bad taste IMO. If I saw something I flat out didn't want my dog to run I would just leave rather than go to the line to make a scene.
 
#9 ·
Had it happen to me a few years ago. I was judging a master test, this was the second series. Handler came up with his more mature dog which also had several master passes and had made a trip or two to the Master Natioanl, I think it even had a plate or two. We had a water triple. Dog retrieved the go bird and the middle bird and was shipped to swim this channel to the long memory bird at the end of the channel. It was pretty much a straight old channel swim past a point where the short memory bird had been. The dog was swimming along and clearly making its way to the old fall it had just retrieved. My co-judge sat there astonished the handler was letting this happen. Rover just kept chugging away and up onto the point and out her nose down and began a hunt of the short memory bird. It wasn't just a quick wiff as it ran through this old fall which put her really far off line, but an honest to goodness dig it out hunt. Finally the handler put the whistle on and went to cast the dog away from the old fall. Several casts later and a few too many refusals the dog recovered the third fall. We judges immediatley offered our dismay that we would have to drop the dog as it clearly returned to an old fall and established a hunt, and even if we would have overlooked the return to the old fall, there were far too many cast refusals for us to accept in this series. Handler got pretty upset with us, made a few comments and stormed off. Later in teh same series the handler came back with their younger dog. As they approached the line he stated that if the dog even twitched he was going to pick it up. We called for the birds and I watched the dog sit as stoically and solidly as you would want a dog to sit. I called his number and he took out his leash and went to the honor.

Later that evening at supper a member of the gallery told us judges this particular handler had returned to the gallery after we had dropped his older dog and was storming mad about being dropped and told everyone how he was going to get us back by picking up his second dog so we would have to pick up the marks ourselves. Like we two judges were going to have to strip down and swim across the water to pick up birds or something. DUH. We had throwers and all the marks were on land, so no big deal. More of an unjustice and disrespect to your co-handlers in the stake for wasting their time with taking your dog to the line and picking them up just to prove a point...a point lost on us I guess.

I can totally see setting up a dog who has a creeping issue if that is the way you want to do it but let the judges and marshall know that in advance so the next dog is ready and so forth. That is kind of expensive training session.
 
#11 · (Edited)
Have seen cases like Dave said .
Also I think in the past a double staked dog, present on grounds, couldn't scratch from one stake and run the other. So they'd bring the crazy sob to line and pick him up hoping he'd be steady at the other stake.
I could be wrong about the scratchin thing but it came to mind.
 
#13 · (Edited)
Yep, usually Safety Issues for a certain dog, ex older or 3 legged dog andMud, unsafe water entry-exit, high strung dogs with water they can jump across, ditch running through the middle of a test, protruding pipe judges were warned about etc. People usually don't want to foot the vet bill for judges stupidity, or a $4 ribbon. Still they usually don't make it to the line unless they weren't there for the handlers meeting, where they could protest prior to start.

I once scratched all my dogs after an unpleasant judge incident but didn't feel the need to go to the line to do it ;).
 
#14 ·
I have heard of many people doing this at agility trials to cure their creepy start line stays. If the dog values "the game" then being taken away from their "reward" seems to work for those that I know that have actually done it.
 
#16 ·
Had a handler do this maneuver recently in protest of another handler being dropped for talking to his dog after calling for the birds (bird #1 was flyer, handler blew duck call to start test, as soon as flyer station blew duck call, dog started to get antsy and handler commanded "Sit"). Co-judge and I informed him that he was out for a controlled break per the rules re: remaining silent after calling for birds. Second handler came up a number of dogs later, asked us why we dropped his buddy. We politely told him that it was due to a CB which is not allowed. He then came up, blew duck call, watched birds drop 1, 2, 3 then leashed his dog and walked off. Pretty small in my opinion. Not sure what point he was intending to make. Wasn't like it was a judgment call. The rules on this are very clear and the understanding of those rules should be blatantly clear to all involved I think.
 
#17 · (Edited)
...Not sure what point he was intending to make. ...
Not your problem. Judges judge, handlers handle, dogs dog.

There ARE a few judges out there that are so bad that I would consider picking up instead of running. In fact, a few I wish I had done this rather than being a "good sport" at the expense of my dog. In a couple of cases because the tests were patently un-safe, in others just because they were un-sound tests with no point in finishing or not.
BUT
It's a whole lot easier to avoid entering - IF you know they're going to do it.

My "list" is short, but firm.
 
#18 ·
Never watched marks and picked up dog to show up judges, but I have withdrawn from test and filed complaint with test committee and Orgs national office. Had a judge walk his dog right up in the face of working dog to see if dog was aggressive then on the water marks had you pull yourself out in the middle of small pond in deep water and run marks out of boat, this was swimming water pretty close to over your head or close too it and have dog pulled back in boat on each mark. I dealt with the dog in dog's face but running out of boat in deep water was a pretty unsafe and stupid thing to do..
 
#21 · (Edited)
Here are some tests (over many years) I wish I had thanked the judges and walked away from:

Started Mark toward a busy highway.

Senior Trail toward a busy highway.

Water mark with one Over-Under and a third mark with an entry into a deadfall with potentially dangerous sticks.

Into-the-wind triple where there was equal access downwind (following a screwed up land series.)

Upland tests quartering into "blockers." (X n)

Upland with flush at the end a long trail.

Marks into 6 ft. cattails.

"No-see-em" water blind that was technical enough w/o a trick.

The ones that come to mind were either potentially unsafe or unfair to the dog (at the level he was at.)

Misteaks happen, judges only make my "list" with repeats.
 
#23 · (Edited)
Here are some tests (over many years) I wish I had thanked the judges and walked away from:

Started Mark toward a busy highway.

Senior Trail toward a busy highway.i

Water mark with one Over-Under and a third mark with an entry into a deadfall with potentially dangerous sticks.

Into-the-wind triple where there was equal access downwind (following a screwed up land series.)

Upland tests quartering into "blockers." (X n)

Upland with flush at the end a long trail.

Marks into 6 ft. cattails.

"No-see-em" water blind that was technical enough w/o a trick.
The ones that come to mind were either potentially unsafe or unfair to the dog (at the level he was at.)
O
Misteaks happen, judges only make my "list" with repeats.
Just guessing but you were probably the RD (commodore in charge so to speak) at at least a few of those unsafe and poorly designed tests. Odd that you wouldn't speak up for the benefit of your fellow handlers.
 
#30 ·
In the early years of AKC HT they would do just that. As a matter of fact, I have an old poloroid picture of my dog entering a huge patch of cattails down around Sarasota, FL. For reasons stated above, and the obvious hazards this practice might have in the Southeast, the practice didn't last long. In hunting down here, if a bird sails into the cattails, I will go look for it but won't send the dog.
 
#31 · (Edited)
Interesting. Up here it is pretty much the exact opposite. I don't want to think about how many birds my hunting partners and I would've lost over the years had we not had dogs that could get into the cattails and find downed game (not to mention all the roosters we'd have never seen and shot had the dogs not ventured into those same cattails).

Back to the original intention of this thread, I just think that for someone to come up to the line knowing they are only going to waste the club's resources and everyone's time by watching the birds fall and then walking off is very poor sportsmanship. I have no issue with someone deciding not to run a test, for various reasons, but to demonstrate that level of character, walking off, is pretty lowly in my opinion.
 
#37 ·
Back to the original intention of this thread, I just think that for someone to come up to the line knowing they are only going to waste the club's resources and everyone's time by watching the birds fall and then walking off is very poor sportsmanship. I have no issue with someone deciding not to run a test, for various reasons, but to demonstrate that level of character, walking off, is pretty lowly in my opinion.
I have seen it done for a variety of reasons--even saw one time where several handlers did it. No big deal in my book. It doesn't really affect the club much--no more than a 'no bird' or a break--and a handler can scratch whenever they want. If it is a big deal for the club, perhaps they should look into the reasons a handler or handlers feel the need to do such a thing.

Not exactly the same thing, but my favorite instance was when a friend was retiring his dog. After years of making the dog steady, as soon as the flyer was shot, he didn't wait and sent his dog for it. The whole gallery applauded and even the judges thought it was fitting.
 
#32 · (Edited)
Taking your dog off of the line is an option. I can't think of an option that is any less effective though. The judges have already made up their minds that this is a good set up.

Try this option: After somebody volunteers to run the test dog, simply tell the judges that you need to scratch #7 because you can't risk another ACL injury in that mud, or my dog is too old to run through those rocks, or the broken limbs in the tall grass. Tell the Marshall to note in the secretary's report as to why you scratched.

If you think it's a stupid test: 5 points, are 5 points! Somebody's going to get them.

J.O.
 
#34 ·
This is a great thread.

On the one hand I have worried about my dog's safety on some setups, on the other hand I think I am over cautious.

As a newb, I tend to defer to more experienced people like judges.

I have one of those dogs that always tries to leap from one bank to the next, scares me bad sometimes. If I see something like this in a test, I will be less reluctant to speak up, and walk away if my dog's safety is in doubt.
 
#35 ·
For a creeper, one getting sticky, club/group training days aren't "real" to a seasoned dog...only the "real" day will work. I've seen it done for one little whimper (dog had been being noisy and was headed to the Grand).
 
#38 · (Edited)
Walk off was do to the handler trainer walking off because judges called one of his clients dogs for a break a few dogs previous. You had to blow the duck call a couple of times to start the trial. Rookie handler did and quietly said sit. Dog ran a perfect water triple and had a near perfect trial all weekend. Trainer that walked off to prove a point to the judges was that he disagreed with their call.His point as also a judge is we as judges are here to judge the dog and should not have disquailified the dog on that minor infraction. Again up to that point the dog was flawless and so was the handler. Point is also made that we need to keep people interested in the sport.I am also a rookie at this game with a 16 month old lab that is being trained. I joined the club in Saulk Rapids and actively participated in their test this last winter. Had a lot of fun. Not sure what to think about the above. I also train with the walk off trainer and I gained a lot of respect for him that day. He handled himself very professionaly and showed the judges no disrespect. Interesting I also atteneded a judging seminar this past winter at my club that was conducted by AKC. The instructor we had I am pretty sure would have not called that a controled break and pulled the handler off to the side and corrected his mistake. He really drove home the point that as judges we are there to judge the dog.
 
#52 ·
Walk off was do to the handler trainer walking off because judges called one of his clients dogs for a break a few dogs previous. You had to blow the duck call a couple of times to start the trial. Rookie handler did and quietly said sit. Dog ran a perfect water triple and had a near perfect trial all weekend. Trainer that walked off to prove a point to the judges was that he disagreed with their call.His point as also a judge is we as judges are here to judge the dog and should not have disquailified the dog on that minor infraction. Again up to that point the dog was flawless and so was the handler. Point is also made that we need to keep people interested in the sport.I am also a rookie at this game with a 16 month old lab that is being trained. I joined the club in Saulk Rapids and actively participated in their test this last winter. Had a lot of fun. Not sure what to think about the above. I also train with the walk off trainer and I gained a lot of respect for him that day. He handled himself very professionaly and showed the judges no disrespect. Interesting I also atteneded a judging seminar thai past winter at my club that was conducted by AKC. The instructor we had I am pretty sure would have not called that a controled break and pulled the handler off to the side and corrected his mistake. He really drove home the point that as judges we are there to judge the dog.
First of all welcome to the sport, I hope you have a lot of fun as you and your dog progress in hunt test. That said I really don't believe he drove any point home to the judges, they just upheld a written rule. As a judge in that position I would just shake my head and call for the next dog. I feel for the rooky handler who made the nervous mistake, but that's why we have the Junior stake, to give beginning handlers time on line to make mistakes and learn without being dropped. When a handler steps up to the line in a major stake, newbie or old pro, the standards are high and everybody running expects them to be upheld by the judges.

John
 
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#41 ·
;) Walk off was do to the handler trainer walking off because judges call one of his clients dogs for a break a few dogs previous. ... I also train with the walk off trainer and I gained a lot of respect for him that day. He handled himself very professionaly and showed the judges the respect they are due.
Yeah, bring it, Aretha: R-E-S-P-E-C-T. How about an analogy? My friend gets ticketed for jaywalking and it burns me up because, you know, everybody does it, but nobody ever does anything about it. Until my friend gets ticketed, and I'm p*ssed. So I decide to tell that mean old "Walk/Don't Walk" sign where to shove it, and do my own "walk-off" into the traffic. And the nice big Freightliner pays me the respect I'm due just as I see it bearing down on me. And my last thought is, "That was some kind of gallant protest I just made, weren't it?"

MG
 
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