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Thread: Hey Lardy folks-

  1. #1
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    Default Hey Lardy folks-

    Am on my second Collar dog and followed Lardys' Total E-.

    Things went great, but did something that I absolutely HATE doing. I continued on through CC' the way Lardy has it laid out, however found myself doing something that I do not fully have a grasp on, and I HATE that, and want to fully understand.
    The segment where he burns the dog on SIT, while the dog is SITTING, and referred to it as indirect pressure really threw me off. Then at other times , (while using collar pressure), refers to it as direct pressure. O.K, that officially -----> me.

    To me, it's like pehaps using a HEELING Stick for re-enforcment, (or punishment if you will), and then considering it indirect pressure ..well,..because that's how I want the dog to "see it".

    I can't read another sentence on Operant Conditioning, because the more I try to apply it to what Lardys' doing the more fustrated I get. I want to know how it applies.

    Believe it could be me just not seeing the woods for the trees, but was wondering if some of you good folks could dumb it down for me, so this simple mind can "get it" .
    Thanks.
    Dawgs are like Savings Accounts-
    You only get out of 'em what you put into 'em.

  2. #2
    Senior Member HNTFSH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swampbilly View Post
    To me, it's like pehaps using a HEELING Stick for re-enforcment, (or punishment if you will), and then considering it indirect pressure ..well,..because that's how I want the dog to "see it".
    Swamp I'm not sure you meant to say reinforcement = punishment.

    Try this video and see if this perspective enlightens at all.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vel35MIwhrg
    We shoot dogs with a Canon

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    Senior Member Lynn Hanigan's Avatar
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    Indirect pressure is not punishment. It is motivation to try harder. I know it seems irrational on the surface but it works very well.
    Keep in mind that if you correct a dog while he is running he may not understand what he was doing wrong at the time. However, if you stop his feet it gives him a chance to clear his mind. Then when he receives the correction and the original command is repeated he will respond by trying harder to do it right.
    Duckworth Retrievers

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    Administrator Chris Atkinson's Avatar
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    I watched the video and am glad I did. I'd never seen it before. I think he does a good job overall, through repetition and lots of dialogue, explaining direct versus indirect pressure in different contexts.

    I thought that at 4:52, when he explains "indirect pressure", it's not quite the way that I'd personally choose to explain it. It turns out that the dog did not run the initial blind the way J.Paul explained it at 4:52 anyhow, so it is a moot point.

    What I mean by that is that the "indirect pressure" as was explained, involved a sit and a nick as the dog beached, without a preceding command with which the dog chose not to comply. To my mind, giving a sit nick when a dog beached, that long after the intial send would not be the best example of indirect pressure.

    As it turned out, though, J.Paul did run it with a more "textbook" indirect pressure application. The dog was given the cast, the dog refused the cast, J.Paul stopped with a whistle, then gave the nick, then gave the cast again. The dog worked it out and definitely appeared to make the connection and learn something from it.


    HNTFSH, thanks for the video link. Never saw it before. I miss seeing J.Paul around. He's one of the more colorful characters in the game.
    "Determining and applying the criteria for when and when not to use correction is the essence of the art of dog training. I make a distinction between a mistake and a lack of effort." - Mike Lardy - Volume I "After Collar Conditioning"

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    Senior Member 2tall's Avatar
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    I saw the same thing as Chris. My understanding of good use of indirect, is to sit the dog when he goes off line, (water or land) give a correcting cast, and then if he fails, to "Sit -Nick-Cast. I too enjoyed the video and think it would be very helpful for those that have not had an opportunity to watch this in person and learn from a mentor. Thanks for putting it out there, I had never heard of J. Paul. Think I like his stuff though.
    Carol,
    Owned and handled by Cruisin' with Indiana Jones, JH
    Alternate Handler: Westwind Buffalo Soldier
    Apprentice Handler: Snake River Medicine Man, JH
    http://newhoperetrievers.com

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    Member Darin Brewer's Avatar
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    I believe J Paul does a nice job there explaining the "full" concept of indirect, I believe that Mike also explains it fairly similar in TRT on disc 2 (I believe it's disc 2). The video is a god explanation, k9 contenders has some good videos of others too. Thanks for the video.
    Rankin' Retrievers

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    Senior Member Charles C.'s Avatar
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    You'll drive yourself crazy trying to understand or put a label on why certain things work with dogs. Just know that indirect pressure has been used successfully to take many dogs to a very high level of training and they maintained a great attitude.

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    Administrator Chris Atkinson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charles C. View Post
    You'll drive yourself crazy trying to understand or put a label on why certain things work with dogs. Just know that indirect pressure has been used successfully to take many dogs to a very high level of training and they maintained a great attitude.
    I agree with this comment. I can remember, and I don't recall exactly where or how Mike words it, that he talks about, in a single segment, all of the various quadrants of conditioning and training that take place. His comments were along the lines that it really doesn't matter too much if you try to identify and label all of the different components of the segment. In the end, it works. Lots and lots of dogs and trainers have come before the program to map out a system that works.

    Many of us want to know exactly how the internal combustion engine functions, whether it have a carb or fuel injection. Many want to know exactly what makes what happen. Others find that it is just as practical to know how to properly operate the equipment and not get into the details.

    I think there's no "right" or "wrong". I do think that some of us can advance more smoothly and create better results if we try to understand the umbrella concept and implement it, rather than break it down to bite-size chunks that require "explanation" for each piece.

    And no, I'm not in any way implying that this is SwampBilly's intent.

    Happy June 1, 2013 to all of you. I have a certain spouse who is celebrating a birthday today!

    Chris
    "Determining and applying the criteria for when and when not to use correction is the essence of the art of dog training. I make a distinction between a mistake and a lack of effort." - Mike Lardy - Volume I "After Collar Conditioning"

  9. #9
    Senior Member HNTFSH's Avatar
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    All good comments and agree totally on the umbrella understanding. Even keen DVD watchers and people 'trying hard' seem to wrestle grasping the difference.

    Then imagine those that make it up as they go. And there's a gaggle of 'em.

    Couple other nuggets were the factors of the wind to the shoreline hence knowing what to expect the dog to do. Moreover the direct Nic on the Pop and quick explanation on confidence.

    Devils always in the detail.
    We shoot dogs with a Canon

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    Quote Originally Posted by HNTFSH View Post
    Swamp I'm not sure you meant to say reinforcement = punishment.

    Try this video and see if this perspective enlightens at all.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vel35MIwhrg
    HNTFSH that's right- certainly didn't mean for that to come out like that!

    Thanks for that vid, believe it may be starting to click a little better.

    Something I keep reading,..and seeing- and that is, that every time I watch someone use collar pressure (even J.P.), in an example of direct pressure, it seems that there's NO command given in conjunction with the pressure, and it's refered to as direct pressure.
    Am I making a sound observation on that?

    Then,.. when a known command is given, and re-enforced with collar pressure I also see everybody refering to it as indirect pressure.
    Am I seeing all of this the way I've described it?

    Really appreciate everyones' input. The answer to all of this is right there floating around in my head, but just can't grab it.
    It's like trying to remember exactly where ya' parked at Disney World.
    Dawgs are like Savings Accounts-
    You only get out of 'em what you put into 'em.

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