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Thread: Hey Lardy folks-

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Atkinson View Post
    What I mean by that is that the "indirect pressure" as was explained, involved a sit and a nick as the dog beached, without a preceding command with which the dog chose not to comply. To my mind, giving a sit nick when a dog beached, that long after the intial send would not be the best example of indirect pressure.
    Hey Chris-
    Re-read your post here and think you're on to this, but it's just not perfectly clear to me, whether or not he actually used pressure, (without a command), once the dog hit the shore.
    There was no command, I know that much. But did he use pressure as soon as the dogs' feet hit land?
    And again-
    What I believe I'm seeing is that without a command,.. and then pressure simply coming out of "no-where", ..it's considered direct pressure.
    Get me straight if I'm wrong about this.

    Really appreciate everyones' help with this, it's driving me bonkers.

    Want to add, that I might be getting caught up in semantics.
    To me-
    Collar pressure, (no matter what situation the dogs' in and no matter why pressure was used), is direct pressure, kinda' like a loaf of bread-
    No matter how you slice it , it's still a loaf of bread.
    Seems it's something about a command, (or the lack of), that makes the difference between the terminology, or rather--> how the dog percieves it.
    Last edited by Swampbilly; 06-02-2013 at 07:18 AM.
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  2. #12
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    Don't mean to keep ramblin' on, could be the concept is slooowly working it's way in dunno'.

    It makes absolutely no sense to me that collar pressure used to re-enforce, (with a learned command for the dog to associate it with), would be punshment.

    However, collar pressure without a command at all, (not even a whistle), seems it could be punishment.
    If so-
    HOW does the dawg know what it's being punished for from a distance!!??
    Like a re-enforcing tap with the HEELING Stick after a SIT command. And the dog raises his rear end up, and I tap it again without a command.
    Now, I know that dog will SIT back down. But from a distance using collar pressure as J.P. did, (or eluded to rather), HOW'S the dog know without a command what the collar pressure was for when/if the dog gets on the shore?
    Last edited by Swampbilly; 06-02-2013 at 07:51 AM.
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  3. #13
    Administrator Chris Atkinson's Avatar
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    In my own personal opinion and view of "direct pressure" a command should still immediately precede the application of pressure. I personally avoid ever giving collar pressure unless it is preceded by a command. I believe Mr. Lardy would agree with this concept.

    One direct pressure application that I use fairly frequently when I do group walks with four dogs simultaneously is "leave it". This is a universal command to stop sniffing the dead fish and don't roll in it. Get away from the snapping turtle, don't eat that discarded fisherman garbage on the bank, etc. The command "leave it" always precedes the nick.

    Warner Smith (Garmin, formerly Tri-Tronics) recommended a Classic 70 for these group walks. I have found it works great. I tend to set the dial on a 1, 2 or 3. I can direct the stimulation to any of the dogs I'm walking.

    In the Mike Lardy collar conditioning video, most all of that pressure application is direct pressure. It is the formalizing of the already known obedience commands in compliance with the collar pressure. "Sit - nick", "here-nick" etc. are used. I believe Mike does also introduce indirect pressure later in that video. (it's been a while since I've watched it) If Mike does, that's done in conjunction with some simple casting drills (ie, "mini t").

    In my Amish days, I did a fair amount of indirect pressure, without realizing that's the label. The problem was the timing was very poor. Here's an example: I would have suction pulling pup to the right on a blind. I'd stop pup and give a left cast (over, back whatever). Pup would refuse and move right. I'd sit the dog on a whistle, then waddle, walk, run, etc. out to the dog. Then once I reached the dog, I'd issue some sort of correction (verbal, stick pressure, etc). Then move back to the line and repeat the cast. (or maybe not back all the way up to the line, since the dog tends to better take the correct cast when there's less distance between him and handler) The reason I say the timing was poor is that there's a delay between the stop whistle, issued after the improper response to the cast, and when I reached the dog. To my mind, this is the beauty of indirect pressure with collar corrections and part of why it is so effective. The timing can be quite close to the infraction, which appears to transfer much better to the dog's ability to connect the pressure with the incorrect response.

    One thing I really like about J. Paul's video that was posted is his discussion of "effort". J. Paul points out that the trainer needs to identify effort or the dog trying as opposed to a lack of effort. If the dog is trying, but just doesn't quite do it right, that probably would not be a good time for any kind of collar pressure at all.

    Direct pressure examples: "Here" with a tug on the lead, "sit" with a tug up on the lead or a tap on the rear with a stick, etc.

    I personally avoid collar pressure without a preceding command.
    "Determining and applying the criteria for when and when not to use correction is the essence of the art of dog training. I make a distinction between a mistake and a lack of effort." - Mike Lardy - Volume I "After Collar Conditioning"

  4. #14
    Senior Member RookieTrainer's Avatar
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    This is the way it has been explained to me, as I was trying like you to understand why it works.

    As J. Paul said, the reason for indirect is that you have too many possibilities for misplaced associations with direct pressure. If you correct on the beach, the dog may put the correction together with getting out, not with not running a straight line, which is different. Then you have the risk of inadvertently reaching your dog to be nervous about getting out of the water.

    Notice also that indirect pressure will almost always be used in conjunction with "sit," because the dog should immediately recognize the sit whistle and know what to do to turn the pressure off, so it should provide a more stable response to the correction. I don't know how the next part happens, but I know that my dog, like the dog in the video, always responds better and at least gives better effort after an indirect correction like the one in the video.

    For one example, you give your dog a right back and he turns left, which is essentially a cast refusal. You would immediately blow a sit whistle to stop him. If attrition, you would recast. If he again spins left, at that point you would blow a sit whistle - nick - sit. This apparently tells the dog two things: sit, which he understands and complies with, and apparently "Hey, clear your mind and watch what I am directing you to do." Magically, the dog sees my cast and does what I am asking about 90% of the time, but even if he does it wrong again he does it with more effort.

    Like Chris says above, this process also makes sure that there is always a command preceding a correction. And the reason I used spinning the wrong way on a back cast is that it is difficult for me to envision a situation (other than the inability to see the cast) in which spinning the wrong way is not a lack of effort.
    Last edited by RookieTrainer; 06-02-2013 at 08:23 AM.
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  5. #15
    Senior Member HNTFSH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swampbilly View Post
    HNTFSH that's right- certainly didn't mean for that to come out like that!

    Thanks for that vid, believe it may be starting to click a little better.

    Something I keep reading,..and seeing- and that is, that every time I watch someone use collar pressure (even J.P.), in an example of direct pressure, it seems that there's NO command given in conjunction with the pressure, and it's refered to as direct pressure.
    Am I making a sound observation on that?

    Then,.. when a known command is given, and re-enforced with collar pressure I also see everybody refering to it as indirect pressure.
    Am I seeing all of this the way I've described it?

    Really appreciate everyones' input. The answer to all of this is right there floating around in my head, but just can't grab it.
    It's like trying to remember exactly where ya' parked at Disney World.
    Swamp - in that clip J Paul used the collar twice. Once as Direct when the dog popped (which was impressively timely given he was yakking at us and caught it) to correct the dog directly for spinning around, giving up on a 'back'. There is an important differentiation between correcting on confusion and correcting on effort. That's a whole other discussion but assume the direct Nic was for momentum to continue the command 'back'.

    The second Nic was on Sit. A known command. The dog wasn't Nic'd for hitting the beach in the dogs mind but it's attention was gained. The cast back into the water was then given to put the dog back into the right position to complete the right line to the bird. J Paul describes he doesn't want to make the land 'hot' but rather get the dog off the land and back en route to the pile. Which it did.

    The second time the dog lined the blind, of course it became pattern but the route the dog took (minus the pitstop) made the dog successful to the pile. So the second time, the dog learned what route would make it successful again - DESPITE the factors which made the 1st beaching an attractive 'option' for the dog.

    He set the dog up to fail essentially so as to work in indirect pressure if the dog did. He didn't want to make the shore 'hot' because there's no lesson there. He did want to set the dog up to be swayed by factors in which the dog might allow them to sway from the correct route. Therefore the dog learned to stay the course against the cheat or temptation but the land never became the issue. Therefore the land was not an issue. This is why he describes what he feel pap may have done the 2nd time if he'd made the shore hot as a correction instead of using indirect pressure - the dog flaring wide of land which would have been a poor line also.

    Keep in mind the dog was through Swim-by and Decheating.
    We shoot dogs with a Canon

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by RookieTrainer View Post
    but even if he does it wrong again he does it with more effort.
    That made me laugh...
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  7. #17
    Senior Member MooseGooser's Avatar
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    I too am confused by the Video!

    As the dog first starts out, he pops! JPaul gives direct pressure in response to the Pop. (Nick, Back)

    Then as the dogs line starts to deteriorate, and the decision is made by the dog to head to land, JPaul says he is "going to help him out".
    JPaul gives a sit whistle (No correction) and a cast away from the bank. Dog really doesnt take that cast.. JPaul lets the dog beach, and waits till the dog clearly decides to go up the bank, then gives a whistle sit (I would have given the nick RIght then after the whistle),,, but JPaul,, gives the whistle sit again with a Nick!!

    To me,, the dog showed it decided to get dirt,, so right then,(,Sit,Nick, cast) back into the water..
    It is,,in my mind still INDIRECT PRESSURE because you Nicked on the sit command,, and followed that Nick with the cast you wanted..

    I would not have given the sit whistle again followed by the nick,,as the dog was sitting.. That confused me..

    In reality,,,, I probably would have worked on getting the cast away from shore in the first place, and forgot about the blind!

    As soon as the dog LOOKED or gave any indication to want dirt,,, I would have blown the whistle, and cast away from shore! as the dog proceeded, if it looked or indicated again it wanted the shoreline I would have whistled and cast away from from again! I would have worked on getting that cast! No correction just attrition, even if I swam the dog a long ways off line from the blind... I want the cast!

    There ! Bug in the OIntment!

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  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by HNTFSH View Post

    Keep in mind the dog was through Swim-by and Decheating.
    Ahh, yes, yes, yes!
    HNTFSH thanks for that.

    Still believe I'm overthinking it when it comes to Lardys' CC' concept, ( with a dog that's not been de-cheated or swimby yet).
    A mental block that's not yet been overcome.
    And to just quickly grab a snippet of what Chris mentioned:


    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Atkinson View Post
    I'd sit the dog on a whistle, then waddle, walk, run, etc. out to the dog. Then once I reached the dog, I'd issue some sort of correction (verbal, stick pressure, etc).
    Now Chris complained about the timing of the correction, (which comes with the territiory of non collar), but in the event his P.F Flyers got him there a little quicker, and it was more timely, (and if he did use a stick instead of a audible), I still don't see a difference, whether a command was used or not, between direct and indirect pressure--> the stick touched the dawg.

    God help me, I see it as direct pressure either way
    But I know there's a difference.
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  9. #19
    Senior Member HNTFSH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MooseGooser View Post
    In reality,,,, I probably would have worked on getting the cast away from shore in the first place, and forgot about the blind!

    As soon as the dog LOOKED or gave any indication to want dirt,,, I would have blown the whistle, and cast away from shore! as the dog proceeded, if it looked or indicated again it wanted the shoreline I would have whistled and cast away from from again! I would have worked on getting that cast! No correction just attrition, even if I swam the dog a long ways off line from the blind... I want the cast!
    Given the intent of the clip for distinguishing pressure J Paul prescribed exactly what the dog would do, and it did. I agree with casting back online which was the first cast given after correcting on the pop. The dog stayed wet, albeit hugging the shore. And then beached at a 90 degree angle. This gave the opportunity for J Paul to demonstrate the indirect.

    Had he done otherwise wouldn't the clip have been about keeping the dog on a line?

    It was a little sloppy on the cast refusal and him needing to square the dog back up and at the same time a good video example of a dogs reaction and how to work with it. Most people complain in their training videos the dog does it perfect and theirs don't.
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  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swampbilly View Post
    God help me, I see it as direct pressure either way
    But I know there's a difference.
    You still see the collar as a correction or punishment. THAT's the part you have to reconcile. And trouble differentiating giving pressure on something the dog didn't do 'wrong'.
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