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Hey Lardy folks-

13K views 89 replies 27 participants last post by  copterdoc 
#1 ·
Am on my second Collar dog and followed Lardys' Total E-.

Things went great, but did something that I absolutely HATE doing. I continued on through CC' the way Lardy has it laid out, however found myself doing something that I do not fully have a grasp on, and I HATE that, and want to fully understand.
The segment where he burns the dog on SIT, while the dog is SITTING, and referred to it as indirect pressure really threw me off. Then at other times , (while using collar pressure), refers to it as direct pressure. O.K, that officially -----> :confused::confused: me.

To me, it's like pehaps using a HEELING Stick for re-enforcment, (or punishment if you will), and then considering it indirect pressure ..well,..because that's how I want the dog to "see it".

I can't read another sentence on Operant Conditioning, because the more I try to apply it to what Lardys' doing the more fustrated I get. I want to know how it applies.

Believe it could be me just not seeing the woods for the trees, but was wondering if some of you good folks could dumb it down for me, so this simple mind can "get it" .
Thanks.
 
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#62 ·
This is a great example of why I say you can't train a dog from a video. In order to try and demonstrate this J Paul needed the dog to do certain things. Frankly J Paul would most likely in a typical day of training would have handled the dog away from shore and kept at it. For those of you, like me, that think he should have handled at least once more before the dog beached, what would you have done had the dog just refused to those casts? You could use attrition, but I'm willing to bet most amateurs would get in a fire fight with a dog that wants shore vs water resulting in numerous corrections in water. Remember your hand in the cookie jar training. I would have probably gave one more cast away from shore, then if the dog decides to go to shore and lands, then boom, hand in the cookie jar. Correction for landing and casting off the land. I then can evaluate, I gave the dog more opportunities to do the right thing but also got one correction for his offense on land. Training is a balance, don't correct in water too many times if the goal is stay in water and don't correct on land too many times when the goal is to get on land.

/Paul
 
#64 ·
To the OP question, my simple view of message to dog in Direct vs. Indirect pressure:
Direct = "Do this" (Back-nick, here-nick, over-nick, fetch-nick)
Indirect = "Don't do that" (handler responds to cast refusal with sit-nick, then repeating cast)
 
#66 ·
That's a interesting way of looking at it. However, do not forget that many other techniques are geared to "Don't do that". For example yelling NO and burning or simply cold burning are also designed to say "Don't do that!" Both are examples of punishment (Stopping a behavior) rather than reinforcement (Increasing a behavior). Both are not good examples of Indirect Pressure in that they are likely to have other consequences. Neither give the dog much information except STOP! In Indirect Pressure usage we always try to tell the dog to do something(like SIT!). The Direct Pressure on Sit acts indirectly to increase the desired behavior(the cast). Used this way, Indirect pressure is Negative reinforcement not Punishment like NO Nick. I too like to keep it simple but sometimes simple isn't so easy
 
#68 ·
Like I said in my earlier posts. I think Jpaul just got wrapped up in showing what Indirect pressure would be like if the dog got on shore.

His main goal was that explanation, and a Video.
In real life though, when he decided early to " Help the dog", and then got a poor response to that angle back cast, and then ignored that poor rsponse and let the dog beach, I feel, was a mistake!

Like I said, IMHO once you decide to Handel, ang get a cast refusal, In training, the blind is over, and you work on getting the cast.

JPaul could have shown indirect pressure after that cast refusal just as easily by us using a whistle, nick , cast away from shore.


JMHDAO

Gooser
 
#73 · (Edited)
That's a interesting way of looking at it. However, do not forget that many other techniques are geared to "Don't do that". For example yelling NO and burning or simply cold burning are also designed to say "Don't do that!" Both are examples of punishment (Stopping a behavior) rather than reinforcement (Increasing a behavior). Both are not good examples of Indirect Pressure in that they are likely to have other consequences. Neither give the dog much information except STOP! In Indirect Pressure usage we always try to tell the dog to do something(like SIT!). The Direct Pressure on Sit acts indirectly to increase the desired behavior(the cast). Used this way, Indirect pressure is Negative reinforcement not Punishment like NO Nick. I too like to keep it simple but sometimes simple isn't so easy


Except in circumstances when "cold burn" promotes correct behavior,,meaning cold burn equals dog doing desired behavior or " do this" Which has a lot to do with how the dog has been conditioned. What the dog is thinking at the time is critical.
which takes you back to the old adage there are no absolutes not even in taxes, death or dog training,,,,
The only absolutes I know of are recorded in the bible.
 
#75 ·
As a novice dog-training outsider looking in I don’t mind adding my thoughts. In my profession I have developed many of the procedures, instruments, and protocols. More or less, it did not exist so I invented it. I’m an international authority. Never the less, routinely someone with similar experience not to mention less experience teaches me something. Thus, as an outsider I look to the experienced individual for depth of knowledge, but I never discount other opinions from those less experienced. This is not to misconstrue that someone should trust my dog training knowledge. I'm simply adding an opinion.

J. Paul wished to demonstrate a concept. I doubt anyone feels he could not have been more aggressive in maintaining his line, yet I’ve seen Lardy tapes where the dog is far more off line, but often the dog makes the correction without influence. Here we are talking about perhaps 20 degrees. At the point the dog gets out of the water, the dog could still have made the correction rather than making a 90 degree turn to the shore. Yes, one could be more proactive, but with so little margin for error, I can see the handler electing to allow the dog to make the decision. I guess one could say that it’s better to handle sooner simply because once you allow that little margin for error, you don’t have the time to correct because the mistake is instantaneous and there is nothing you can do other than use indirect pressure. Perhaps this is exactly what J.Paul wished to demonstrate. Perhaps he encouraged it.

What was the resulting response? The dog ran a water blind straight to the white water pipe in the next run. In other words J. Paul got exactly what he wanted. Perhaps there is more than one way to teach a dog. The day we stop believing that there a better way or an alternative way to do things is the day we stop advancing. I don’t care what profession you are in.

In my own experience when I have a dog that is within 15 degrees of making the wrong decision, do I correct him or do I let him work it out? Often the margin of error is less than 20 feet. If I don’t correct, I’ll not have time to stop his forward momentum. Often, this works against me as the dog makes the wrong decision. In many of the Lardy videos, the dog is perhaps over 50 yard out and 45 degrees off, yet the dog is not corrected and still the dog works it out. Should we be more aggressive when the margin of error is less?

Certainly, I see concerns with this video such as setting a blind next to a white pipe, casting with the wrong arm on the pop, perhaps nicking at the time of the pop, and not correcting sooner on the shore bound line. Then after the indirect pressure off the water exit and sit, the dog took the wrong line on shore and stopped without a whistle Why?

Still it worked and on the next run, the dog hit the white pipe perfectly.
The way I see it is that J. Paul set out to demonstrate something and it played out exactly as he planned. I’m not saying it’s optimal, but how can you fault a guy for getting exactly what he expected to happen especially when the dog performed flawlessly in the next run.
 
#80 ·
picture this . Your dog is on a point of land, you have given an "Over" command. He does not take it, you blow the whistle and give another "Over" command. He does not take it. Instead of using "Over" nick ( direct pressure) I am going to use "Sit" nick (indirect pressure) and then give another "over" with no correction on over
 
#84 · (Edited)
Dennis the 15% was I think being offline. You and I (and I hope some others ) read the dog in the video as having made the decision to beach long before he actually touched land, I would guess he was 20 yards out when I read him as heading for land. At that point we would have blown a whistle ( NO correction ) and Handled to the mark. IF he scalloped back to land , "Toot" and another handle ( may or may not correct ON THE TOOT, depending on the level and history of the dog) .
For the people trying to learn , Reading the dog is an art, you watch for little head cocks, ear laybacks ( shows he is thinking), slight turns either way, repeated bending toward the beach and the most obvious head straight for the beach. This dog was heading straight for the beach and the handler let him go, telling him everything is cool , you are going the right way. And then said NOPE after he beached. Now this very well could have been JUST to demonstrate what he wanted to say, but in my regular training program I would never lie to the dog , and then correct him for what I allowed him to do...!!
To your significant other , " Honey , can you take the trash out?" 10 minutes later "Why the hell did you do that, I was goona put more stuff in?!! Dumb ****..."
 
#85 ·
I agree with your assessment whole-heartedly, Bridgette. One would expect an experienced trainer to handle sooner simply to avoid the landing temptation. At the point the dog diverted 90 degrees to land, the dog was still on an acceptable line, but the parallel shore was just to tempting to this young dog. Still it seemed to work.

Anyway, I’m not going to play the devils advocate any further. Let me ask you this. As an inexperienced handler I periodically run into this sort of problem. I ran a triple blind today with a poison bird. I set the poison bird up improperly and shot it out of a Zinger rather obtuse in angle such that it landed with a thump. Poor thing was expelling fluid on the return. Anyway, the location of landing screwed up the entire test, but I said no to the dog, moved him to the left and ran him toward a blind that was out of the line to the stunned live bird, but they were close in terms of angle. My dog took off on the right line. Then he began to deviate toward the live bird. I stopped him and corrected without pressure. Unfortunately, by now he was so close to the poison bird that he had it before I could react other than to whistle a stop that he ran through. Rookie mistake, of course, but that’s what rookies do. At that point, I did not stun him. I just let the dog make the return and then ran the blinds. Let’s say you have close marks or blinds and the dog makes a sudden deviation to the wrong one. Before you know it, he’s running through the whistle and takes the wrong mark or blind. He has it in his mouth now. What do you do? Do you back up and run simpler tests or is there a proper correction here.
Now, my second dog skipped the poison bird and hit the blind. Perhaps the handler learned something.

Anyway this sort of thing happens to me from time to time on tight lines where the dog makes the mistake so fast on the short bird that I’m left flat footed sort of like how Notre Dame was against Alabama in the BCS this year. Now, I don’t always get the wrong response, but I don't know how to manage it when I do.

I like your honey and the trash. Mine was always my mom asking me if I wanted anything to eat while I was focused on something else. I’d say sure without thinking. Then when she showed up with a plate of food, I’d say, why did you make that? You hear the stimulus, but you don’t process it correctly so you end up with something unwanted. The correction is you have to eat it.
 
#86 ·
You blow it off and try it again another time. The biggest thing is if YOU make a mistake , THE dog does not pay for it. If you set up was screwed up and you recognized it before running it , I would have changed the lesson plan for the day or called a no bird and reset the mark.
If he was close to the poison bird you might have whistled him IN 20-30 yds on the second cast ( attrition) and then cast. It sounds like you gave a hail Mary cast and Mary did not respond...:)
 
#87 ·
Awesome advice. I guess it was a hail Mary, but i threw the ball to the defender. Thanks. Actually, i do always blow it off and reset to a different address with a similar theme the next day and the dogs seem to get it. I have not tried calling them back, which i think is sage advice.
 
#88 · (Edited)
You can't correct before the dog has made the "lack of effort".
When the dog has made a "lack of effort", it's not US that has to know. It's the DOG that has to know.

This is key. Even with what Pete refers to when he says;
Except in circumstances when "cold burn" promotes correct behavior,,meaning cold burn equals dog doing desired behavior or " do this" Which has a lot to do with how the dog has been conditioned.
If the dog knows exactly what the pressure MEANS, it absolutely will understand the correction. Cold burn, direct, or indirect. But when the dog doesn't have the education and conditioning in place, you have to fall back on what the dog KNOWS.

And that's where indirect pressure really comes into play.

The dog HAS TO understand pressure to go, pressure to stop, and pressure to come. If the dog understands those key things, there are not very many circumstances where you CAN'T apply indirect pressure. But if it doesn't, you simply do not have the foundation to be able to apply indirect pressure.

Remember, indirect and direct pressure happen at the same time.
What makes them possible, is the dog understanding the pressure as reinforcement of a known command/behavior.
Without that understanding, EVERYTHING that you do with pressure equates to a cold burn.
 
#89 ·
Remember, indirect and direct pressure happen at the same time.
What makes them possible, is the dog understanding the pressure as reinforcement of a known command/behavior.
Without that understanding, EVERYTHING that you do with pressure equates to a cold burn.
Enjoyed your post 'Doc.



You know, of all the different forms of pressure in the world and the source from which they come- I truely believe that your voice, (the tone of it), can shut 'em down just as quickly or easily as any other form of pressure when it becomes overwhelming to the dog.
 
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