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Thread: Hey Lardy folks-

  1. #21
    Administrator Chris Atkinson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swampbilly View Post
    Ahh, yes, yes, yes!
    HNTFSH thanks for that.

    Still believe I'm overthinking it when it comes to Lardys' CC' concept, ( with a dog that's not been de-cheated or swimby yet).
    A mental block that's not yet been overcome.
    And to just quickly grab a snippet of what Chris mentioned:



    Now Chris complained about the timing of the correction, (which comes with the territiory of non collar), but in the event his P.F Flyers got him there a little quicker, and it was more timely, (and if he did use a stick instead of a audible), I still don't see a difference, whether a command was used or not, between direct and indirect pressure--> the stick touched the dawg.

    God help me, I see it as direct pressure either way
    But I know there's a difference.
    Direct Pressure means the pressure occurs at the same timing as the infraction. Ie...dog is walking at heel. You want to use direct pressure on a "sit". You walk dog at heel, while walking, you say "sit" and then immediately follow with a "nick", perhaps while lifting up on a leash, tapping with a stick, etc. That's "Direct" pressure.

    Indirect pressure is applied on a command given (and complied with) AFTER the previous command was given and not complied with.

    Example: dog is on a point and handler casts dog "over" into water. Dog instead digs back and stays dry. Rather than handler giving an "over" command again, and immediately giving pressure, (Direct). Handler instead stops dog with a sit whistle. Dog turns, sits, and complies with the sit. Handler then gives a nick (indirect) even though pup sat as commanded. The indirect pressure nick on the sit command is for non-compliance with the previously given cast, which pup refused.

    Make sense yet?

    Forget the stick in my Amish example. The stick has nothing to do with it. The reason I brought up the Amish correction is that I was using indirect pressure (with crummy timing) without understanding it. Dog gets a cast. Dog refuses cast. Dog is given a "sit" whistle, dog complies with sit whistle, but handler goes out there and corrects, not for the sit, which was complied with, but for the previously given command, which got no effort.

    Here is the difference. Indirect pressure involves pressure given after the dog complies with the "sit" command. The dog is given the "sit" command AFTER the dog fails to comply with the command issued previously. The most common example I can think of has to do with cast refusals.

    The thing that is tough for some of us (myself included back when I was trying to digest this stuff) is that the dog is complying with the sit whistle, yet he gets corrected. Doesn't that confuse the dog? The answer is that when chained together correctly, the indirect pressure helps clarify to pup that he needs to focus and put forth effort on the command given.

    How does it work? My answer is that it works great! Some want to know how the internal combustion engine works in detail. Others just want to know how to operate it and then go make it run.
    "Determining and applying the criteria for when and when not to use correction is the essence of the art of dog training. I make a distinction between a mistake and a lack of effort." - Mike Lardy - Volume I "After Collar Conditioning"

  2. #22
    Senior Member Mary Lynn Metras's Avatar
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    Lardy's book states that he looks for behaviors which are lack of effort. These mistakes you look for on the 3 handed casting drill or out in the field. They can be corrected with IP. So you correct on the sit and sequence is "sit" nick "over" and an example Lardy uses is for a dog that freezes when casting and you correct on the sit for cast refusal. (Page 39) He really emphasizes to use this on known commands. DP in my mind can create hot spots when you really don't want so one has to be careful and judicious in their use of the collar. Lately have I have had to revisit this section and carefully go over the use of IP for my dog. I do use the buzz on my Dogtra but am thinking if he ignores the buzz he may need a nick. This is a big step for him, so we are going through the 3 handed casting etc. so he is well versed in the procedure and expectation. This is my interpretation of IP.IMO and hopefully I am interpreting that correctly from the booklet. JP's video was very good and informative. Thanks for sharing it.
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  3. #23
    Administrator Chris Atkinson's Avatar
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    Years ago, the late Jerry Harris was helping one of us out to try to grasp the difference between direct pressure and indirect pressure.

    Here are his timeless words:

    Originally Posted by Unca Jerry Harris


    You send your teenage son to the mailbox. On the way he spots the neighbor’s voluptuous daughter in a bikini (factor). He immediately starts in her direction (succumbing to the factor).


    You yell (whistle) Son!!!!!! (Handle). His eyes get back into focus and turns toward you and says “WHAT??” (responding to the whistle) For the Amish folks, you walk up to him and whop him upside the head!!! (correction=indirect pressure). You then say ‘You were told to go get the mail, now do what you were told!!!


    That my friends is Indirect Pressure and why it works.”
    "Determining and applying the criteria for when and when not to use correction is the essence of the art of dog training. I make a distinction between a mistake and a lack of effort." - Mike Lardy - Volume I "After Collar Conditioning"

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Atkinson View Post
    Direct Pressure means the pressure occurs at the same timing as the infraction. Ie...dog is walking at heel. You want to use direct pressure on a "sit". You walk dog at heel, while walking, you say "sit" and then immediately follow with a "nick", perhaps while lifting up on a leash, tapping with a stick, etc. That's "Direct" pressure.

    Indirect pressure is applied on a command given AFTER the previous command was given and not complied with.

    Example: dog is on a point and handler casts dog "over" into water. Dog instead digs back and stays dry. Rather than handler giving an "over" command again, and immediately giving pressure, (Direct). Handler instead stops dog with a sit whistle. Dog turns, sits, and complies with the sit. Handler then gives a nick (indirect) even though pup sat as commanded. The indirect pressure nick on the sit command is for non-compliance with the previously given cast, which pup refused.

    Make sense yet?

    Forget the stick in my Amish example. The stick has nothing to do with it. The reason I brought up the Amish correction is that I was using indirect pressure (with crummy timing) without understanding it. Dog gets a cast. Dog refuses cast. Dog is given a "sit" whistle, dog complies with sit whistle, but handler goes out there and corrects, not for the sit, which was complied with, but for the previously given command, which got no effort.

    Sheesh Chris-
    Thanks. (In my most dumbfounded voice).
    Dear Lord, that was simple enough!
    I feel really dumb right now.
    Got it.

    Now get me straight on Stick pressure that you want me to disregard, not sure why. Know that pressure can come from a laundry list of sources, (whether direct or indirect), and to me, no matter what form of pressure it is, each form can change behavior similar to another form, or at least have the same affect.

    Can't Stick pressure run kinda' sorta' parallel to Collar Pressure? Know that electricity is different, but have gotten the same result from a tap on the flank as a SIT*tap* SIT as I can a SIT *nick* SIT.
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  5. #25
    Senior Member HNTFSH's Avatar
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    Swamp - not to derail this direct/indirect pressure thing but have seen it complicated by what people perceive a dogs reaction to be either vocally or body language.

    My current pup at 1 screams like a banshee. Complete Drama Queen. Must be the Cosmo in him. He was through FF a month and when my daughter came home from college and played with him in the yard and started 'rubbing his ears' he complained...lol.

    Anyway - what's been your experience and more importantly comfort level with pressure, even if just direct? Confidence goes a long way so understand that's why you're asking about this.
    We shoot dogs with a Canon

  6. #26
    Administrator Chris Atkinson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swampbilly View Post

    Sheesh Chris-
    Thanks. (In my most dumbfounded voice).
    Dear Lord, that was simple enough!
    I feel really dumb right now.
    Got it.

    Now get me straight on Stick pressure that you want me to disregard, not sure why.

    Atkinson Response: The reason why is that it seemed you were focusing on the type of pressure, and somehow allowing that to weigh into whether it was direct or indirect. The type of pressure, (collar, stick, yelling "no", etc.) is not a factor in whether it is direct or indirect.

    Know that pressure can come from a laundry list of sources, (whether direct or indirect), and to me, no matter what form of pressure it is, each form can change behavior similar to another form, or at least have the same affect.

    Can't Stick pressure run kinda' sorta' parallel to Collar Pressure? Know that electricity is different, but have gotten the same result from a tap on the flank as a SIT*tap* SIT as I can a SIT *nick* SIT.
    Atkinson Response: Yes, absolutely, there are all sorts of ways to communicate to the dog. The stick (or another wonderful one is the ROPE) are great tools through which to communicate with the dog.

    It's really all about communication and shaping behavior, in my opinion.

    And yes, the "many" pelts on my wall are what some would consider mere mousetrap results. They're mostly camo colored packed away in boxes, multi-colored, hanging in my kids' bedrooms, or a few minor stake ribbons. I hope nobody thinks I'm trying to tell someone how to make an NFC. I'm just trying to explain my own personal view of "indirect" versus "direct" in the context of M. Lardy's TRT, TECC and TRM stuff.

    Chris
    "Determining and applying the criteria for when and when not to use correction is the essence of the art of dog training. I make a distinction between a mistake and a lack of effort." - Mike Lardy - Volume I "After Collar Conditioning"

  7. #27
    Senior Member HNTFSH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Atkinson View Post
    I hope nobody thinks I'm trying to tell someone how to make an NFC.
    Doesn't come across that way at all - sure it doesn't to Swamp either.

    That said - if you do want to spill that secret sauce - feel free.
    We shoot dogs with a Canon

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by HNTFSH View Post
    Swamp - not to derail this direct/indirect pressure thing but have seen it complicated by what people perceive a dogs reaction to be either vocally or body language.

    My current pup at 1 screams like a banshee. Complete Drama Queen. Must be the Cosmo in him. He was through FF a month and when my daughter came home from college and played with him in the yard and started 'rubbing his ears' he complained...lol.

    Anyway - what's been your experience and more importantly comfort level with pressure, even if just direct? Confidence goes a long way so understand that's why you're asking about this.
    Too funny^^.(Drama Queen stuff).

    Have always used a HEELING Stick, but never used a Choker much- x-cept for those occasional "wild childs' who need some x-tra help. I really, really, like Lardys' employing of three forms, (well,.. 4 if when including audibles or 5 if including an ear pinch if neccessary) , of pressure. It makes for a completely different ball game-and for me, a LOT more manageable in terms of training, and with fewer REPS than before.

    Inasfar as indirect pressure,( before collar training), it was hard to get it in there, timely , (from a distance either way) as perhaps the "comes with the territory woes" of non-force.

    Don't know if I answered your question, (and assumed you weren't talking transmitter level), but am confident, (although I did keep moving along with CC-ing as per Lardy without fully understanding a concept), with using pressure. Glory part is there's more tools in the tool box now.
    Last edited by Swampbilly; 06-02-2013 at 05:27 PM.
    Dawgs are like Savings Accounts-
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  9. #29
    Senior Member HNTFSH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Atkinson View Post
    Years ago, the late Jerry Harris was helping one of us out to try to grasp the difference between direct pressure and indirect pressure.

    Here are his timeless words:

    Originally Posted by Unca Jerry Harris
    hahahaha...priceless. And exactly why we with voluptuous daughters want all to understand it.
    We shoot dogs with a Canon

  10. #30
    Senior Member Brokengunz's Avatar
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    direct and indirect are simple

    direct is a correction for A

    indirect dog does A, gets command B and correction.
    B "indirectly" effects A.

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