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Thread: Hey Lardy folks-

  1. #31
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    Overly simplified: Direct pressure = force
    Indirect Pressure= correction
    Bert Rodgers

  2. #32
    Senior Member EdA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brokengunz View Post
    direct and indirect are simple

    direct is a correction for A

    indirect dog does A, gets command B and correction.
    B "indirectly" effects A.
    I wonder how something so simple seems to become so complicated and why must we analyze why it works, it works so other than intellectual curiosity who cares. Almost every correction in the field is the application of indirect pressure, i.e. dog makes a mistake, handler blows whistle and pushes button and the dog complies and sits, the only exception being when the dog fails to answer the whistle so when handler pushes button that becomes direct pressure. The truly gifted trainers are the ones whose timing when they apply indirect pressure is perfect thereby shortening the learning curve for the dog, timing is everything.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by HNTFSH View Post
    That made me laugh...
    If you only knew. I wish I would have had the foresight to video our training sessions. Pair an extremely birdy dog that runs with his hair on fire and a first-time trainer, and a great deal of hilarity has ensued. Ask me how I found out it's not a real good idea to train barefooted.
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  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by MooseGooser View Post
    As soon as the dog LOOKED or gave any indication to want dirt,,, I would have blown the whistle, and cast away from shore! as the dog proceeded, if it looked or indicated again it wanted the shoreline I would have whistled and cast away from from again! I would have worked on getting that cast! No correction just attrition, even if I swam the dog a long ways off line from the blind... I want the cast!

    There ! Bug in the OIntment!

    Gooser
    I may be misunderstanding what you are saying, but I got a pretty good confirmation yesterday that, at least for my dog, that's not the way to do it. I used to start correcting (used here to mean attrition or pressure) on that look, or any indication that something might be about to go wrong, until I finally figured out that I was reacting too early in most cases.

    My dog showed me this again in a swim-by refresher last week. Almost invariably, when he knows the over bumper is out there, he is going to bend a little that way and give it a couple looks, which he did, but I decided to put my whistle and my transmitter in my pocket and let him commit. And each time what he did was decide to go to the back pile where he was sent.

    Of course, I now wonder how many times I have stopped and recast or stopped and used indirect pressure when the dog was actually going to make the correct decision if I had let him roll until he had clearly made either the right decision or the wrong one.
    Steve Wyatt

    HR Belle's Rolling Big Rig "Jimmy"

  5. #35
    Senior Member copterdoc's Avatar
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    If you don't give a command, it's a cold burn.
    Example, dog beaches early and you push the button.

    If you give a command, and reinforce that command with pressure, it is BOTH direct AND indirect pressure at the same time.
    You can't apply indirect pressure without also applying direct pressure. And vice-versa. It's not possible.

    The difference is what we are doing with it.

    If you are pointing your finger right at the problem with the command you give, that's probably direct pressure.
    If you are trying to correct something else, that's probably indirect pressure.

    For example, if the dog is rolling on a rotting fish, you could:
    (1.) Light the dog up (cold burn).
    (2.) Say LEAVE-IT and nick or burn (direct pressure).
    (3.) Say HERE and nick or burn (indirect pressure).

    Using indirect pressure is "safer" than a cold burn or direct pressure, because the dog isn't looking all over the place for something to "blame it on".

    Because, you have a thoroughly conditioned command-pressure association, that the dog understands very well.

    But, they still don't like the pressure. So, in the future, they are very likely going to avoid doing whatever "wrong" thing they were doing at the time that they were indirectly corrected.

    Even when you force a dog out of a pop, you are primarily using indirect pressure.
    Sure, you ARE using direct pressure on the command back. But, you are PRIMARILY using indirect pressure to make the dog less likely to pop in the future.

    There does not have to be a refused command, for indirect pressure to be applicable. In fact, those are often the situations that indirect pressure is most useful. When you don't HAVE an enforceable command for exactly what the dog is supposed to do!
    Last edited by copterdoc; 06-02-2013 at 10:02 PM.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by HNTFSH View Post
    Doesn't come across that way at all - sure it doesn't to Swamp either.

    That said - if you do want to spill that secret sauce - feel free.
    That's right, I didn't see it that way either.

    Yeah-
    Please pass the steak sauce
    Dawgs are like Savings Accounts-
    You only get out of 'em what you put into 'em.

  7. #37
    Senior Member MooseGooser's Avatar
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    I understand JPaul is trying to demomstrate the topic of Indirect pressure with his Video, BUt,

    Look at time 5:35 .
    JPaul says he is going to help the dog, because clearly the dog is going to dirt. He whistles. gives and right ANGLE back cast. The dog really doesnt take it very well,, and definatly doesnt carry it very far..

    So, when Rookie trainer read my post about what In REALITY I would do, I said I would after giving that angle back cast AWAY from shore,, that as soon as the dog even slightly turned its head or thought about going left to dirt, Another whistle,, and another Andle back cast! From them on, I would forget the blind,, and Get that cast, even if it meant swimming the dog way off line of the blind. I want the cast!!

    If the dog would have taken JPauls cast at time Mark 5:35, the dog would have been in very good position, and Not got on that point of land. He would NOT have looked up the bank after Jpaul let him beach so as to demonstrate the indirect pressure..

    He could have used indirect pressure the same way as when the dog wouldnt take the cast JPaul originally gave, each time the dog looked or even thought about shore,, another whistle,, and another angle back cast, forgetting about the blind,, but using indirect pressure to get the cast!

    Am I wrong??

    Feel Free!

    I'm NOT trying to tell anyone how to make a FC either,, but I think JPaul was more concerened about demonstrating Indirect pressure if the dog beached>>

    Gooser
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  8. #38
    Senior Member Brad's Avatar
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    Ok, I got a question about timing. I think ive been using direct pressure mostly. I seem to blow the whistle and push button at same time.
    Do you blow sit whistle and wait till dog turns and sits then nick whistle. (dog has a slow sit)
    Lets say in water, would you blow whistle and wait for dog to turn and settle a little, then whistle nick whistle and wait a couple seconds and cast?

  9. #39
    Senior Member Mary Lynn Metras's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brad View Post
    Ok, I got a question about timing. I think ive been using direct pressure mostly. I seem to blow the whistle and push button at same time.
    Do you blow sit whistle and wait till dog turns and sits then nick whistle. (dog has a slow sit)
    Lets say in water, would you blow whistle and wait for dog to turn and settle a little, then whistle nick whistle and wait a couple seconds and cast?
    How come nobody references Lardy's CC book? It is all there.
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    "Knowing how important right timing is in accomplishing right actions"
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  10. #40
    Senior Member Brad's Avatar
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    Im a slow learner.
    And have caused problems, hoping to fix. I don't think he talks about timing? Or does he?
    I guess my question was, do you wait till dog turns around and plants but on ground then nick, or blow whistle and push button instantly after whistle. Iwill re read lardys book.

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