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Thread: Hey Lardy folks-

  1. #41
    Senior Member EdA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brad View Post
    Im a slow learner.
    And have caused problems, hoping to fix. I don't think he talks about timing? Or does he?
    I guess my question was, do you wait till dog turns around and plants but on ground then nick, or blow whistle and push button instantly after whistle. Iwill re read lardys book.
    I/we learned from Rex Carr and you did not wait for completion of the command to apply collar pressure always making sure that the whistle preceeds the collar so that the desired response is a reaction to the whistle and pressure rather than pressure at completion of the task. If the Lardy version differs from that it is hard to argue with success.

  2. #42
    Member mathewrodriguez's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MooseGooser View Post
    I understand JPaul is trying to demomstrate the topic of Indirect pressure with his Video, BUt,

    Look at time 5:35 .
    JPaul says he is going to help the dog, because clearly the dog is going to dirt. He whistles. gives and right ANGLE back cast. The dog really doesnt take it very well,, and definatly doesnt carry it very far..

    So, when Rookie trainer read my post about what In REALITY I would do, I said I would after giving that angle back cast AWAY from shore,, that as soon as the dog even slightly turned its head or thought about going left to dirt, Another whistle,, and another Andle back cast! From them on, I would forget the blind,, and Get that cast, even if it meant swimming the dog way off line of the blind. I want the cast!!


    Gooser
    JPaul opened by stating the dog was young, and not trained on shoreline blinds. What JPaul demonstrated was exactly right. A dog in this early stage of training who doesn't recognize a clearly defined shoreline, should be allowed to make the complete mistake of stepping out of the water and getting dry... Then whistle - nick, then give the proper cast to get back in the water.

    Gooser's point on taking the right cast is correct with a more seasoned dog. Generalizing that a young dog should take a cast no matter what... with new factors/concepts is not correct. The concept of staying wet and the temptation of getting out early is more important than the cast in this TEACHING scenario. It's also the appropriate time to use indirect pressure.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brad View Post
    Ok, I got a question about timing. I think ive been using direct pressure mostly. I seem to blow the whistle and push button at same time.
    Do you blow sit whistle and wait till dog turns and sits then nick whistle. (dog has a slow sit)
    Lets say in water, would you blow whistle and wait for dog to turn and settle a little, then whistle nick whistle and wait a couple seconds and cast?
    What are you trying to accomplish? A correction or are you just forcing the dog on sit?

    For a correction(indirect pressure) the "Sit" whistle and the Nick are 2 separate events . The sequence should be "Tweet" followed by a pause until the dog is stopped and looking directly at you, then a nick, then "Tweet"

    IMO the object of indirect pressure is 1st stopping the dog to have him focus his attention on you, and the nick tells him that he has done something wrong or that he is not paying attention.

    A direct pressure nick/simultaneous nick as a means of correction for a cast refusal or other infraction sends a confusing message . Like I said, indirect pressure redirects the dog's focus back to the handler.
    Last edited by rbr; 06-02-2013 at 10:38 PM.
    Bert Rodgers

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by EdA View Post
    I wonder how something so simple seems to become so complicated and why must we analyze why it works, it works so other than intellectual curiosity who cares. Almost every correction in the field is the application of indirect pressure, i.e. dog makes a mistake, handler blows whistle and pushes button and the dog complies and sits, the only exception being when the dog fails to answer the whistle so when handler pushes button that becomes direct pressure. The truly gifted trainers are the ones whose timing when they apply indirect pressure is perfect thereby shortening the learning curve for the dog, timing is everything.
    EdA-
    I know, I know. You make a good rationalization.
    I try to keep the "Why is the sky blue questions" to a minimum.
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  5. #45
    Senior Member RetrieversONLINE's Avatar
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    After training today, I saw this topic and waded through it. I have to say how frustrated I was reading it.

    Direct and Indirect Pressure are really simple concepts and yet so many can’t seem to get it. It has been explained here on RTF in the past many times (Among others seemy sticky on Dog Learning Science). This post shows all kinds of erroneous interpretations from the Rex Carr original usage of the terms back in the 70’s. Some of the explanations here are quite incorrect.

    Unlike many of you, I was very disappointed when I watched the J. Paul video. It is not a good explanation of how Lardy would do it. Not only does J. Paul describe Direct Pressure as a “cold burn”, he illustrates many other procedures that are in strong contrast to those that follow Lardy-the original query by the OP. He nicks on a first pop on a confused dog, he casts with the wrong arm causing a spin, he condones a dog going a long way after a decision to head for shore, he allows a dog to beach before correcting, he accepts an outright cast refusal, he blows a sit whistle when a dog stops in confusion(pop # 2), he repeats a blind back-to-back and more. This is the first video I have seen by him. And yet my own magazine has a Tri-tronics ad featuring him. But I do wonder how come so many of you thought this was a good video?

    Pressure does not just come from the e-collar but let’s consider it for this discussion.

    Anytime you command and follow with a nick whether concurrently or with a slight delay it is Direct Pressure on that command. Sit nick is Direct Pressure on the sit. Delaying the nick does not make it Indirect.
    Such uses get well-conditioned and understood over time by the dog.
    Thus, if you use them for other mis-behaviours such as not taking a cast correctly they can act indirectly. Example, Dog does not take a cast. You blow sit whistle and nick. This is Direct pressure on the Sit. The dog knows how to comply. However,it has an Indirect effect on the casting error if the timing is good-that is at the instant of the mis-behaviour (poor effort to cast by the dog). The dog gets pressure when he made the wrong decision. While it is Direct Pressure on the sit it Indirectly affects the behaviour of the poor cast response. It`s a heavy duty slap in the face (see Jerry). Thus, we call it Indirect Pressure (It is Indirect affecting the casting behaviour)
    It is not hot-spot training which J. Paul is advocating by allowing the dog to land! In his example it doesn`t matter what he does, he is correcting for the location-he is not correcting for the behaviour and decision which clearly happened much earlier in the video. Why do you want a young dog to be afraid to land?

    I am not saying that his method is not and cannot be used but I am saying this is not the Lardy or original Rex Carr usage. When you can consistently beat their results let me know.
    Dennis

  6. #46
    Senior Member JS's Avatar
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    Thanks Dennis.

    This whole conversation has been a cluster---!

    JS
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  7. #47
    Senior Member Pals's Avatar
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    Finally. Thanks Dennis.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by RetrieversONLINE View Post
    He nicks on a first pop on a confused dog,
    Mr. Voigt-
    It's quite an honor to have you here, and thanks for your interest.
    Would very much like to see/read what you're seeing through your professional eyes. Have no mentors, I learn on my own.

    When he nicked the dog BACK when the dog popped, do you believe it was perhaps the factors that created initial suction, (confusion) to the shore, or do you believe the dog was confused from the time he made a water entry and swam 5yds.? It seemed to me the initial line deteriorated after about 5yds..
    Thanks for your thoughts.
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    You only get out of 'em what you put into 'em.

  9. #49
    Senior Member Mary Lynn Metras's Avatar
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    Thanks Dennis.
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  10. #50
    Senior Member Ken Bora's Avatar
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    Dennis, thank you for a great post.
    And for linking it to the classic Jerry Bikini factor!
    I just watched the vid.
    So...... to branch of a wee bit.
    You all know all those threads about the pro and con of running to a big white bucket?
    Do you think it is just happenstance he put his orange ribbon and orange bumpers next to that big white drain pipe??
    Or that the dog went to and sniffed it afore picking up the bumper, each time?
    a blind placement I do not recomend. In a pond you can drive all the way around he could have had the same wind and bank factor running from big white drain pipe to the point of origin he used. Don't teach your dog to run to white.
    "So what is big is not always the Trout nor the Deer but the chance, the being there. And what is full is not necessarily the creel nor the freezer, but the memory." ~ Aldo Leopold

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