The RetrieverTraining.Net Forums The Retriever Academy
Total Retriever Training with Mike Lardy
Hawkeye Media Gunners Up Tritronics Outdoor Media
Page 9 of 9 FirstFirst ... 789
Results 81 to 90 of 90

Thread: Hey Lardy folks-

  1. #81
    Senior Member RetrieversONLINE's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Lindsay, Ontario
    Posts
    682

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bridget Bodine View Post
    You still don't get it. Your dog was getting a COLD BURN, there was no direct pressure because there was no command to accompany the correction. He was getting zapped for NO apparent reason to him.
    It would have been direct pressure if he heard a command.
    BB

    Unfortunately, if you reference the J. Paul video, he clearly defines Direct Pressure as a COLD BURN-no command just zap. This was my major objection to his explanation.Well I guess one could define it that way because it is certainly direct! However, as we have learned, commands in almost all situations (but not all!) should precede a correction. Thus, the conventional definition of Direct Pressure is a command followed by a nick. In any case, it is not surprising that cold burns cause pops.

    I see folks struggling with two other ideas in this thread.

    One is the timing after the command. It is not as critical as most think.

    What is more important is the timing of the intervention (the command).

    Someone talked about a dog being within 15 degrees of a decision. Not sure what that means but I do know the issue IS NOT whether the dog is off-line or not. The issue is whether the dog deviated or refused a command. More precisely, the issue is the decision to deviate or to refuse command. Those are the reasons for intervention with pressure. You don't intervene with pressure just because a dog is off line. This seems to be an elusive idea for some!
    Dennis

  2. #82
    Senior Member Gun_Dog2002's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Mohawk Valley
    Posts
    8,673

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by RetrieversONLINE View Post
    BB

    Unfortunately, if you reference the J. Paul video, he clearly defines Direct Pressure as a COLD BURN-no command just zap. This was my major objection to his explanation.Well I guess one could define it that way because it is certainly direct! However, as we have learned, commands in almost all situations (but not all!) should precede a correction. Thus, the conventional definition of Direct Pressure is a command followed by a nick. In any case, it is not surprising that cold burns cause pops.

    I see folks struggling with two other ideas in this thread.

    One is the timing after the command. It is not as critical as most think.

    What is more important is the timing of the intervention (the command).

    Someone talked about a dog being within 15 degrees of a decision. Not sure what that means but I do know the issue IS NOT whether the dog is off-line or not. The issue is whether the dog deviated or refused a command. More precisely, the issue is the decision to deviate or to refuse command. Those are the reasons for intervention with pressure. You don't intervene with pressure just because a dog is off line. This seems to be an elusive idea for some!
    For me, personally, I don't correct or use pressure for the dog making a mistake. Being offline is a mistake (often times because of the handler if truth be told) but in line with your comments its about did the dog deliberately refuse a command. This is why in the J Paul video I said I would have at least given another cast or two away from shore and seeing the dogs reaction to those casts before correction/pressure gets applied.

    /Paul
    Paul Cantrell
    Black Ice Retrievers
    Marcola OR

    Too many dogs to list (By some Bitch)

    https://www.facebook.com/BlackIceRetrievers
    http://gundog2002.blogspot.com/
    "Helping Hunters Train Their Dogs"

  3. #83
    Senior Member Bridget Bodine's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Lake Winola, Pa
    Posts
    2,348

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Gun_Dog2002 View Post
    For me, personally, I don't correct or use pressure for the dog making a mistake. Being offline is a mistake (often times because of the handler if truth be told) but in line with your comments its about did the dog deliberately refuse a command. This is why in the J Paul video I said I would have at least given another cast or two away from shore and seeing the dogs reaction to those casts before correction/pressure gets applied.

    /Paul
    100% agree with you. You don't correct a dog for making mistakes , everybody is allowed to makes mistakes!@!! You correct a dog for lack of effort. ( read effort as doing what he wants to do rather than what you are asking him to do)
    COLD BURNS have no place in my retriever training regime , it is a lightning strike with no info on why it happened
    BB
    Sight To Sea Labradors
    Southern Cross at Sight to Sea SH "Crosby" (by NAFC FC AFC Cody Cut a Lean Grade)
    Tealwood's Willing at Sight to Sea JH ( by CH I am Able)
    Briarglen's Running on Faith JH (by FC Fish River's Out of the Park)
    Glendair's Come Home to the Sea ( By Ch Topform's Edward MH, QAA)
    Sight To Sea's Take Aim SH (by Sight to Sea's Southern Comfort SH )Aug 23 2003-Feb 2013 Go get em , Man!

    Manager of www.DeCoverlykennels.com

  4. #84
    Senior Member Bridget Bodine's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Lake Winola, Pa
    Posts
    2,348

    Default

    Dennis the 15% was I think being offline. You and I (and I hope some others ) read the dog in the video as having made the decision to beach long before he actually touched land, I would guess he was 20 yards out when I read him as heading for land. At that point we would have blown a whistle ( NO correction ) and Handled to the mark. IF he scalloped back to land , "Toot" and another handle ( may or may not correct ON THE TOOT, depending on the level and history of the dog) .
    For the people trying to learn , Reading the dog is an art, you watch for little head cocks, ear laybacks ( shows he is thinking), slight turns either way, repeated bending toward the beach and the most obvious head straight for the beach. This dog was heading straight for the beach and the handler let him go, telling him everything is cool , you are going the right way. And then said NOPE after he beached. Now this very well could have been JUST to demonstrate what he wanted to say, but in my regular training program I would never lie to the dog , and then correct him for what I allowed him to do...!!
    To your significant other , " Honey , can you take the trash out?" 10 minutes later "Why the hell did you do that, I was goona put more stuff in?!! Dumb shit..."
    Last edited by Bridget Bodine; 06-04-2013 at 02:58 PM.
    BB
    Sight To Sea Labradors
    Southern Cross at Sight to Sea SH "Crosby" (by NAFC FC AFC Cody Cut a Lean Grade)
    Tealwood's Willing at Sight to Sea JH ( by CH I am Able)
    Briarglen's Running on Faith JH (by FC Fish River's Out of the Park)
    Glendair's Come Home to the Sea ( By Ch Topform's Edward MH, QAA)
    Sight To Sea's Take Aim SH (by Sight to Sea's Southern Comfort SH )Aug 23 2003-Feb 2013 Go get em , Man!

    Manager of www.DeCoverlykennels.com

  5. #85
    Senior Member forhair's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Posts
    102

    Default

    I agree with your assessment whole-heartedly, Bridgette. One would expect an experienced trainer to handle sooner simply to avoid the landing temptation. At the point the dog diverted 90 degrees to land, the dog was still on an acceptable line, but the parallel shore was just to tempting to this young dog. Still it seemed to work.

    Anyway, I’m not going to play the devils advocate any further. Let me ask you this. As an inexperienced handler I periodically run into this sort of problem. I ran a triple blind today with a poison bird. I set the poison bird up improperly and shot it out of a Zinger rather obtuse in angle such that it landed with a thump. Poor thing was expelling fluid on the return. Anyway, the location of landing screwed up the entire test, but I said no to the dog, moved him to the left and ran him toward a blind that was out of the line to the stunned live bird, but they were close in terms of angle. My dog took off on the right line. Then he began to deviate toward the live bird. I stopped him and corrected without pressure. Unfortunately, by now he was so close to the poison bird that he had it before I could react other than to whistle a stop that he ran through. Rookie mistake, of course, but that’s what rookies do. At that point, I did not stun him. I just let the dog make the return and then ran the blinds. Let’s say you have close marks or blinds and the dog makes a sudden deviation to the wrong one. Before you know it, he’s running through the whistle and takes the wrong mark or blind. He has it in his mouth now. What do you do? Do you back up and run simpler tests or is there a proper correction here.
    Now, my second dog skipped the poison bird and hit the blind. Perhaps the handler learned something.

    Anyway this sort of thing happens to me from time to time on tight lines where the dog makes the mistake so fast on the short bird that I’m left flat footed sort of like how Notre Dame was against Alabama in the BCS this year. Now, I don’t always get the wrong response, but I don't know how to manage it when I do.

    I like your honey and the trash. Mine was always my mom asking me if I wanted anything to eat while I was focused on something else. I’d say sure without thinking. Then when she showed up with a plate of food, I’d say, why did you make that? You hear the stimulus, but you don’t process it correctly so you end up with something unwanted. The correction is you have to eat it.

  6. #86
    Senior Member Bridget Bodine's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Lake Winola, Pa
    Posts
    2,348

    Default

    You blow it off and try it again another time. The biggest thing is if YOU make a mistake , THE dog does not pay for it. If you set up was screwed up and you recognized it before running it , I would have changed the lesson plan for the day or called a no bird and reset the mark.
    If he was close to the poison bird you might have whistled him IN 20-30 yds on the second cast ( attrition) and then cast. It sounds like you gave a hail Mary cast and Mary did not respond...
    BB
    Sight To Sea Labradors
    Southern Cross at Sight to Sea SH "Crosby" (by NAFC FC AFC Cody Cut a Lean Grade)
    Tealwood's Willing at Sight to Sea JH ( by CH I am Able)
    Briarglen's Running on Faith JH (by FC Fish River's Out of the Park)
    Glendair's Come Home to the Sea ( By Ch Topform's Edward MH, QAA)
    Sight To Sea's Take Aim SH (by Sight to Sea's Southern Comfort SH )Aug 23 2003-Feb 2013 Go get em , Man!

    Manager of www.DeCoverlykennels.com

  7. #87
    Senior Member forhair's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Posts
    102

    Default

    Awesome advice. I guess it was a hail Mary, but i threw the ball to the defender. Thanks. Actually, i do always blow it off and reset to a different address with a similar theme the next day and the dogs seem to get it. I have not tried calling them back, which i think is sage advice.

  8. #88
    Senior Member copterdoc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    NW IL
    Posts
    2,468

    Default

    You can't correct before the dog has made the "lack of effort".
    When the dog has made a "lack of effort", it's not US that has to know. It's the DOG that has to know.

    This is key. Even with what Pete refers to when he says;
    Except in circumstances when "cold burn" promotes correct behavior,,meaning cold burn equals dog doing desired behavior or " do this" Which has a lot to do with how the dog has been conditioned.
    If the dog knows exactly what the pressure MEANS, it absolutely will understand the correction. Cold burn, direct, or indirect. But when the dog doesn't have the education and conditioning in place, you have to fall back on what the dog KNOWS.

    And that's where indirect pressure really comes into play.

    The dog HAS TO understand pressure to go, pressure to stop, and pressure to come. If the dog understands those key things, there are not very many circumstances where you CAN'T apply indirect pressure. But if it doesn't, you simply do not have the foundation to be able to apply indirect pressure.

    Remember, indirect and direct pressure happen at the same time.
    What makes them possible, is the dog understanding the pressure as reinforcement of a known command/behavior.
    Without that understanding, EVERYTHING that you do with pressure equates to a cold burn.
    Last edited by copterdoc; 06-04-2013 at 10:11 PM.

  9. #89
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Gloucester,Va
    Posts
    1,295

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by copterdoc View Post
    Remember, indirect and direct pressure happen at the same time.
    What makes them possible, is the dog understanding the pressure as reinforcement of a known command/behavior.
    Without that understanding, EVERYTHING that you do with pressure equates to a cold burn.
    Enjoyed your post 'Doc.



    You know, of all the different forms of pressure in the world and the source from which they come- I truely believe that your voice, (the tone of it), can shut 'em down just as quickly or easily as any other form of pressure when it becomes overwhelming to the dog.
    Dawgs are like Savings Accounts-
    You only get out of 'em what you put into 'em.

  10. #90
    Senior Member copterdoc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    NW IL
    Posts
    2,468

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Swampbilly View Post
    ...You know, of all the different forms of pressure in the world and the source from which they come- I truely believe that your voice, (the tone of it), can shut 'em down just as quickly or easily as any other form of pressure when it becomes overwhelming to the dog.
    Pressure is aversive influence.
    By aversive, I mean that the dog finds the stimulus unpleasant and seeks to avoid it.

    By influence, I mean that it's presence causes the dog to change it's behavior.

    Dogs are unique. Like snowflakes.
    Some dogs are seemingly numb to certain forms of pressure, while others react to the same form of pressure like you just poured acid into an open wound.

    I promise that there are lots of dogs that will not perceive a voice correction as aversive or influential. Let alone be overwhelmed and "shut down" in response to it.

    And BTW, when a dog "shuts down" in response to pressure, it's telling you that it does NOT understand it.
    Regardless of what form of pressure it is.
    Last edited by copterdoc; 06-06-2013 at 03:14 PM.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •