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Thread: All-Age Judging Question

  1. #11
    Senior Member Howard N's Avatar
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    Doggone it Dave. You're making this tough. Marking is of primary importance. Sez so right in the book. The book might give primary importance to the marks but it doesn't say the blinds carry no importance or are pass/fail.

    I can't give lots of weight to the flyer because of lots of varying falls. They just aren't the same mark for all dogs so as long as the dog picks them up I don't weigh the flyer to heavily. I didn't say the flyer carries no weight.

    I want to see the work! 10 judges could see the same work and 5 could go with one dog and 5 could go with the other dog. I know how hard it is and what kind of standards have to be maintained to train for excellent blinds; so I might be a little more prejudiced towards rating blinds higher than someone else.
    Howard Niemi

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    get your dog out and TRAIN! caryalsobrook 2013

  2. #12
    Senior Member Bridget Bodine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Granddaddy View Post
    Can you explain why?
    Based on marking is of primary importance, one poor blind is a lesser evil than one poor mark and one average mark
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  3. #13
    Senior Member polmaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Granddaddy View Post
    The trial is complete. The judges have narrowed their decision for picking a winner to two dogs. Both dogs have run a wonderful trial and both have performance merits which standout above the other. Dog 1 has been virtually perfect on 6 tough marks, no hunts. The marks of no other dog comes close to dog 1 except dog 2. Dog 2 has been near perfect on 5 marks with only one small under the arc hunt (so small you might rate it as comparable to dog 1 on that bird) in the 1st series but dog 2 has a rather large hunt on the go-bird flyer shot in heavy cover in the 4th (both dog 1 & dog 2 encountered the flyer to be downed in essentially the same spot on the go-bird flyer). It should be noted that dog 2 ran relatively late with lots of duck feathers blown over the area of fall and beyond while dog 1 ran several dogs earlier but with similar wind direction. Dog 1's blinds were just OK, the land blind work of dog 1 was middle of the pack, with the water blind of dog 1 poor but apparently good enough to get to the 4th series. Dog 2's blinds were near the top of the field in both the 2nd and 3rd series.

    From the information you have been provided who is your winner & why?
    Don't you guy's have a ''run off''?..sounds like a sure case for one right here?..
    Or?..Judges just pick the one they fancy?
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  4. #14
    Senior Member John Robinson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by polmaise View Post
    Don't you guy's have a ''run off''?..sounds like a sure case for one right here?..
    Or?..Judges just pick the one they fancy?
    It's quite rare, but some judges have called for a fifth series, usually due to the lack of answers they got in the forth. The real danger is they can make a bad situation worse if they lose both "contenders" in the fifth.

    I'm not going to weigh in on this hypothetical except to say that in all my years of judging it has only come down to a tie on the marks one time, and in that case we did weigh the blinds as the tie breaker. Marking is of primary importance, but two excellent blinds has to count for something compared to just OK blinds, I could see that outweighing a hunt on the most unfair of all birds. I know judges who don't even judge the flyer unless the dog is hunting out of the AOF.

    John

  5. #15
    Senior Member Bridget Bodine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Robinson View Post
    It's quite rare, but some judges have called for a fifth series, usually due to the lack of answers they got in the forth. The real danger is they can make a bad situation worse if they lose both "contenders" in the fifth.

    I'm not going to weigh in on this hypothetical except to say that in all my years of judging it has only come down to a tie on the marks one time, and in that case we did weigh the blinds as the tie breaker. Marking is of primary importance, but two excellent blinds has to count for something compared to just OK blinds, I could see that outweighing a hunt on the most unfair of all birds. I know judges who don't even judge the flyer unless the dog is hunting out of the AOF.

    John
    That is a fun fact for this inexperienced maybe wanna be....
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  6. #16
    Senior Member polmaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Robinson View Post
    It's quite rare, but some judges have called for a fifth series, usually due to the lack of answers they got in the forth. The real danger is they can make a bad situation worse if they lose both "contenders" in the fifth.

    I'm not going to weigh in on this hypothetical except to say that in all my years of judging it has only come down to a tie on the marks one time, and in that case we did weigh the blinds as the tie breaker. Marking is of primary importance, but two excellent blinds has to count for something compared to just OK blinds, I could see that outweighing a hunt on the most unfair of all birds. I know judges who don't even judge the flyer unless the dog is hunting out of the AOF.



    John
    Honest answer (imo) John. The dog's performance would decide however ?..surely?..whatever the set up?
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  7. #17
    Senior Member Ted Shih's Avatar
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    The Rule Book says that marking is of primary importance. It does not say that marking is of sole importance. Blinds go into the mix. How much depends on the tests, and the judge. More than than I can't say without watching the dogs
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  8. #18
    Senior Member John Robinson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by polmaise View Post
    Honest answer (imo) John. The dog's performance would decide however ?..surely?..whatever the set up?
    Maybe, maybe not. A lot of what if's and other considerations. Having a fifth series may mean going into Monday, most or all of your help has been working hard since Friday morning, most have to be in school or at work Monday. What if one or both contenders has to be home Monday? What if the judges set up a too hard test that nobody can do? What if the test is so easy everybody does equally well? The dog's performance through four series would decide 99% of the time, lucky for me I haven't been part of that last 1%, and I'll bet if this hypothetical was a real trial, the answers would be there on paper.

    John

  9. #19
    Senior Member John Lash's Avatar
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    I was told by a well respected judge that even if the work is close there will be something you like about a dog that will place it over another. Style, attitude, etc.
    John Lash

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  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Granddaddy View Post
    From the information you have been provided who is your winner & why?
    There is a reason the judging pool should be large & knowledgeable. We all do not see the same thing in a performance & many who hang their hat on the "Accurate marking is of primary importance" couldn't set a challenging blind if their life depended on it.

    TBS - from the rule book - Standard procedure "a dog which marks the fall of a bird, uses the wind, follows a strong cripple & will take direction from his handler is of great value".

    On the next page under judging the same phrase is repeated but in addition: the judges must judge the dogs for (a) their natural abilities including memory, intelligence, attention, nose, courage, perseverance & style, & (b) abilities acquired through training including steadiness, control, response to direction, & delivery. While many of the natural abilities are that, they are reinforced & embellished during the training process. Only those who have watched the maturation of very good to great dogs during that process can appreciate that. There are several living examples of the results of that process & the folks who can make it happen.

    Having trained several competitive FT dogs I would tend to weigh those components that go into a complete retriever based on the difficulty of arriving at the balanced dog after doing several dogs. As primary can mean anything over 50.0001% in weighting there is a lot of latitude.

    One would have to see the performance - there is a reason judges should make notes of anything positive or negative during a dog's performance. & none of us see any performance through the same set of eyes or experience level so it's all relative .
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