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Thread: All-Age Judging Question

  1. #41
    Junior Member Greg Heier's Avatar
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    Based on the information given, I would favor dog #2 if it was my weekend to judge. Judges are to make direct comparisons, "series by series", of each dog's work to determine placements and the "relative merits" on that day. Judging blinds as pass/fail seems inconsistent with this directive. In my opinion, dog two did relatively better when taking all series into account based on the descriptions. My opinion would change if the "large and lengthy" hunt on the flyer in the last series was out of the area of the fall as opposed to in the area of the fall as predetermined by the judges when setting the test.

    Greg Heier

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by gdog View Post
    Based on the information given, I would favor dog #2 if it was my weekend to judge. Judges are to make direct comparisons, "series by series", of each dog's work to determine placements and the "relative merits" on that day. Judging blinds as pass/fail seems inconsistent with this directive. In my opinion, dog two did relatively better when taking all series into account based on the descriptions. My opinion would change if the "large and lengthy" hunt on the flyer in the last series was out of the area of the fall as opposed to in the area of the fall as predetermined by the judges when setting the test.

    Greg Heier
    reading on

    Therefore, much of a Judge’s responsibility is to
    determine how much weight he shall give to certain
    types of exceptional performance and how much
    penalty to assess because of various individual faults, or repetitions of the same fault or combinations of
    various faults. Some faults in and of themselves are
    sufficiently serious to justify elimination from a stake

    Sounds like a directive to decide in advance what is passing and what is not............

    john
    "i guess the old saying 'those of us that think we know everything annoy those of you that does' " --bobbyb 9/13/06

    "A Good Dog is a Good Dog"

  3. #43
    Senior Member John Robinson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by john fallon View Post
    reading on




    Sounds like a directive to decide in advance what is passing and what is not............

    john
    I don't read it that way, at least I don't see where the rules direct judges to not grade "passing" jobs against one another. Maybe as far as callbacks there might be definitive passing/failing jobs, but at the end of the trial when stacking dogs against each other I can see one whistle or otherwise truly nice blinds being scored higher than the dog that barely passed the blinds. Just hypothetically, I can easily see two good blinds and a hunt on the flyer placing above six pins and barely passing blinds. I'm thinking about starting another thread on how flyer marks should be judged.

    John

  4. #44
    Senior Member Ted Shih's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Robinson View Post
    I don't read it that way, at least I don't see where the rules direct judges to not grade "passing" jobs against one another. Maybe as far as callbacks there might be definitive passing/failing jobs, but at the end of the trial when stacking dogs against each other I can see one whistle or otherwise truly nice blinds being scored higher than the dog that barely passed the blinds. Just hypothetically, I can easily see two good blinds and a hunt on the flyer placing above six pins and barely passing blinds. I'm thinking about starting another thread on how flyer marks should be judged.

    John

    I agree.
    Decide, yes.
    Decide in advance, no.
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  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by john fallon View Post
    reading on




    Sounds like a directive to decide in advance what is passing and what is not............

    john
    I disagree that that is justification for pass/fail on blind evaluation, It says "how much weight"! So weigh their relative merits. The guiding principle of the Rule book is to evaluate Relative Merits. Marks are primary but no way blinds are inconsequential. I strongly disagree with pass/fail scoring of blinds!!!! I always favor the "total package" dog both personally and as a judge. Frankly for a hunting dog, the good handling dog is most valuable but for the betterment of the breed natural marking ability remains a top priority.

    Flyer finding can involve so much luck. If it is any kind of a sensible thoughtful hunt, I am not inclined to penalize strongly. Without seeing (as we all have said) can't evaluate but based on the description I read, the one loose mark still gives a win to that dog. He is the dog I want to take home.

    Dave -Is this hypothetical? If not who won? And maybe diagrams would be much more helpful than words to describe. Anyway, I think too many judges opt out of their real job of evaluating relative merits by saying marks trump-close the book.
    Dennis

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Robinson View Post
    I don't read it that way, at least I don't see where the rules direct judges to not grade "passing" jobs against one another. Maybe as far as callbacks there might be definitive passing/failing jobs, but at the end of the trial when stacking dogs against each other I can see one whistle or otherwise truly nice blinds being scored higher than the dog that barely passed the blinds. Just hypothetically, I can easily see two good blinds and a hunt on the flyer placing above six pins and barely passing blinds. I'm thinking about starting another thread on how flyer marks should be judged.

    John
    Thought I give you my view here, in general terms since it is germane to the eventual decision. I generally don't give much weight to the flyer because of its variability and because it usually gets progressively tougher for later dogs, especially in the 1st series and especially when there is good cover & wind involved. Later dogs can have a great mark on the bird and yet not come up with it & have a big hunt. Of course if a dog hunts behind the gun or otherwise shows no clue where the bird is, it's another matter. That said, in the example it was only a 100 yd bird and the particular bird for dog 2 was about 15 yds from the gun directly in the middle of the AOF for all the dogs in the entire 4th series. Dog 2 ran inside of the bird (between the gun & the bird) with the wind blowing from the gun to the bird, the dog then went long and deep, circling back toward the line right and long of the bird. Dog 2 continued this back & forth pattern without much change in its very fast hunt for a considerable time. Eventually the dog slowed down & when it was down wind of the bird by 10-15 yds, it seemed to wind the bird and tracked its way to the bird. The result on paper was a spaghetti line covering the AOF and more.

    And because of my general view not to give much weight to the flyer versus the pin by dog 1 and the large and lengthy hunt by dog 2, it made the eventual decision very difficult. And to correct the assumptions some are making, dog 1 had one middle of the road blind (I'll call good but avg for the portion of the dogs called to the 3rd series that also made it to the 4th) & one water blind that was marginal, better than several dogs in the 4th but less than good. Dog 2 had excellent blinds, not the best in either the 2nd or 3rd series but both excellent. And BTW, I consider blinds more than pass/fail, i.e., they receive consideration in the final analysis but not as important as marks in total.
    David Didier, GA

  7. #47
    Senior Member John Robinson's Avatar
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    So this sounds like a real trial? Was it that tough to judge, are you second guessing yourself? it's been an interesting discussion, but I don't like discussing this stuff on the internet, the guy who came in second could be reading this, might make him feel better knowing how much you agonized over it, but who knows?

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    All hypothetical...........but it could happen. The point of the thread is to have those that judge or those that judge judges, think a little bit about how much tougher it can be to actually judge situations like this versus having theoretical views and understanding of the rules.
    David Didier, GA

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Robinson View Post
    I don't read it that way, at least I don't see where the rules direct judges to not grade "passing" jobs against one another. Maybe as far as callbacks there might be definitive passing/failing jobs, but at the end of the trial when stacking dogs against each other I can see one whistle or otherwise truly nice blinds being scored higher than the dog that barely passed the blinds. Just hypothetically, I can easily see two good blinds and a hunt on the flyer placing above six pins and barely passing blinds. I'm thinking about starting another thread on how flyer marks should be judged.

    John
    http://www.retrievertraining.net/for...=1#post1112118

    As I said here, for me the scoring of the work done on the blind comes into play "when stacking the dogs (with comperable marks) against each other" for the final evaluation or for the purposes of callbacks

    john
    Last edited by john fallon; 06-05-2013 at 06:44 PM.
    "i guess the old saying 'those of us that think we know everything annoy those of you that does' " --bobbyb 9/13/06

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