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Thread: How do you judge flyer hunts?

  1. #1
    Senior Member John Robinson's Avatar
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    Default How do you judge flyer hunts?

    The other AA judging thread presented an interesting aspect of judging, that being the flyer and judging relative work. It is a timely question for me as just last week I ran both of my dogs on a nice Amateur test. One of my dogs is a very-very good marker, the other has his moments and is overall very consistent, but clearly the less talented of the two. The last-bird-down flyer was about 150 yards out and shot slight angle back into 18"-24" tall, wet, spring grass. My better marking dog ran about dog 30 and his flyer landed right in the middle of where most had fallen. He ran out there on line, then hunted that tight area, putting his nose down at every spot a bird had landed. The grass was high enough that you couldn't see the bird laying in the grass. It took him a while, (seemed like forever from the line), before he found the bird. He never hunted away from the AOF, but I had comments on his big flyer hunt. My next dog came up about 20 dogs later, his was a big beautiful arcing bird about 20 yards further than all the others. He ran right out to the bird and picked it up on a line. Hard to be unimpressed by the pin job, on the other hand the other hunt was very tight, showed he knew the bird was there and he stuck with it.

    Would you score the pin job higher than the tight hunt in the AOF? How do you feel in general about judging flyer hunts?

    BTW both dogs were called back and I have no idea how these judges scored the two jobs.

    John

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    Senior Member MooseGooser's Avatar
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    I am not a judge, but ,

    what defines a MARK to me is a dog going directly to the AOF and establishing a hunt there.
    The dog that does this, Marked the bird.... Period...
    I don't pay much attention to how long it takes them to come up with the bird, as long as the HUNT is in the AOF..
    Gooser
    It is far easier to spit on the work of others than it is to produce something better yourself.
    Brynmoors Prairie Sage JH ​(Sage) Just a dang fool huntin Dawg
    HRCH Calypso Seven Bales High SH (Bailey)
    HR Calypso Zoomin Loosies Mad Hader (Maddi) We loved you baby. R.I.P.
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    My Christian Name is Michael Baker..
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    Senior Member EdA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MooseGooser View Post
    I am not a judge, but ,

    what defines a MARK to me is a dog going directly to the AOF and establishing a hunt there.
    The dog that does this, Marked the bird.... Period...
    I don't pay much attention to how long it takes them to come up with the bird, as long as the HUNT is in the AOF..
    Gooser
    OK, so define AOF (area of the fall) and is it the same for all marks, long, short, retired, and fliers?

    And further is the AOF the same for a slow or methodical dog as it is for a fast dog? Is it different if it is the first or last bird thrown?
    Last edited by EdA; 06-05-2013 at 08:31 PM.

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    Senior Member John Lash's Avatar
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    I think it was in a Lardy article. Something like "your dog has to find his flier out of the 50 or so that have been out there." Many times you can see dogs put their nose down at each spot one has been as if they expect it to be right there. So, if you run late and your bird lands where many have been it should be easier, if you run late and yours lands away from where many have landed it could be tougher.

    If your flier lands in a "normal area" where many birds have landed I think it's easier. If your bird is short or long relative to the others it can be easier or very hard. If the flier is an angled back throw and yours is flat or slightly in it can be very difficult.

    I don't know if it's good or bad but at a trial last weekend they used a winger in the Am and the Open. The fliers looked pretty and most landed in the same area.
    Last edited by John Lash; 06-05-2013 at 09:03 PM.
    John Lash

    "If you run Field Trials, you learn to swallow your disappointment quickly."

    "Field trials are not a game for good dogs. They're for great dogs with great training." E. Graham

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    Senior Member MooseGooser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EdA View Post
    OK, so define AOF (area of the fall) and is it the same for all marks, long, short, retired, and fliers?

    And further is the AOF the same for a slow or methodical dog as it is for a fast dog? Is it different if it is the first or last bird thrown?

    Considering the op was talking flyers, and taking into consideration that most flyers are shot outside the test, and they are typically the last bird down, In my mind the AOF is the smallest of the triple.

    It's the Go bird!

    i would give some consideration of the factors involved as to how large the AOF is, but again, I think it will be the smallest of the test.

    I would give a fast stylish dog SOME leewAy as to where it starts its hunt.

    but , I will say this, if it was me and Dr Ed judging together,, I would prolly have to give in to experience if we didn't agree,..... Prolly be fun to watch though!

    Gooser
    It is far easier to spit on the work of others than it is to produce something better yourself.
    Brynmoors Prairie Sage JH ​(Sage) Just a dang fool huntin Dawg
    HRCH Calypso Seven Bales High SH (Bailey)
    HR Calypso Zoomin Loosies Mad Hader (Maddi) We loved you baby. R.I.P.
    FlatLanders Broken Pistol Ricochet SH (Flinch)


    My Christian Name is Michael Baker..
    I have gone by "Gooser" since I was a "gossling"

  6. #6
    Senior Member EdA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MooseGooser View Post
    Considering the op was talking flyers, and taking into consideration that most flyers are shot outside the test, and they are typically the last bird down, In my mind the AOF is the smallest of the triple.

    It's the Go bird!

    i would give some consideration of the factors involved as to how large the AOF is, but again, I think it will be the smallest of the test.

    I would give a fast stylish dog SOME leewAy as to where it starts its hunt.

    but , I will say this, if it was me and Dr Ed judging together,, I would prolly have to give in to experience if we didn't agree,..... Prolly be fun to watch though!

    Gooser
    Since the flier is not always the last bird down, is not always "shot out of the test ", or the shortest mark my original questions stand! What if the flier is at 350 yards, shot first, and retired? What if it's second? Does that make a difference?
    Last edited by EdA; 06-05-2013 at 10:11 PM.

  7. #7
    Senior Member MooseGooser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EdA View Post
    Since the flier is not always the last bird down, is not always "shot out of the test ", or the shortest mark my original questions stand! What if the flier is at 350 yards, shot first, and retired? What if it's second? Does that make a difference?

    Yes!

    I did say in my reply that I would take into consideration the factors involved as to how large the AOF would be.

    distance, and order in the triple, would be a couple of factorsthen.


    Why do I have this strange feeling of being a very juvenile ,gullible Brown trout, and Ed ha just drifted a elk hair caddis perfectly over my head?

    It is far easier to spit on the work of others than it is to produce something better yourself.
    Brynmoors Prairie Sage JH ​(Sage) Just a dang fool huntin Dawg
    HRCH Calypso Seven Bales High SH (Bailey)
    HR Calypso Zoomin Loosies Mad Hader (Maddi) We loved you baby. R.I.P.
    FlatLanders Broken Pistol Ricochet SH (Flinch)


    My Christian Name is Michael Baker..
    I have gone by "Gooser" since I was a "gossling"

  8. #8
    Senior Member EdA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MooseGooser View Post
    Yes!

    I did say in my reply that I would take into consideration the factors involved as to how large the AOF would be.

    distance, and order in the triple, would be a couple of factorsthen.


    Why do I have this strange feeling of being a very juvenile ,gullible Brown trout, and Ed ha just drifted a elk hair caddis perfectly over my head?

    you failed to define area of the fall, was this intentional or just an oversight?

  9. #9
    Senior Member Ted Shih's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EdA View Post
    Since the flier is not always the last bird down, is not always "shot out of the test ", or the shortest mark my original questions stand! What if the flier is at 350 yards, shot first, and retired? What if it's second? Does that make a difference?

    As I told the newbies running the derby at the West Nebraska Field Trial, if you're going to play a game, best that you learn the Rule Book. Time for someone to give the Gooser a Rule Book.
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  10. #10
    Senior Member John Robinson's Avatar
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    Gooser Dr. Ed is asking you tough questions, that means he likes you. Another big consideration that makes flyers inherently unfair compared to hand thrown dead birds is the fact that flyers are very inconsistent, no matter how good the thrower they hook left, hook right, fly long and short. After a bunch of dogs there is literally scent over a very large area. To me that enlarges the area of fall regardless of the order it was shot.

    John

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