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Thread: How do you judge flyer hunts?

  1. #31
    Senior Member MooseGooser's Avatar
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    And since we have said in this thread, that each dogs flyer is independent of the others , would judges have to generally give a predetermined size to where the bird landed?
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  2. #32
    Senior Member Mark Littlejohn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hunt'EmUp View Post
    Dog 2 was on, not only did he pin his flyer, he pinned his flyer, out of the intended Area and didn't fall prey to the massive scent pile where everyone else's bird had fallen. Basically saved the judges from having to think about significantly different flyer-hunt circumstances. The adage "It's not difficult when you know where they are" comes to mind"

    AOF in HT-HRC is considered to increase with time, in a triple the last mark down AOF is considered slightly smaller than 2nd which is slightly smaller than 1st. At least that's what I remember from the Judging seminar. Wouldn't really matter in FT's the dog who marks better than the others overall is 1st, somebody's always seems to "know" where they are, and a smaller hunt is better than a large. Thus I don't see how AOF matters, unless it's used for determining who to keep in for the next series.

    I don't think you get it... Consider trying to place 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc when one dog ran first (and only 2 flyers comprise the "popular" area below), vs the 75th dog who's flyer fell at "x" or "y". If the wind is straight from bottom to top of the page, is "y" easier or harder? Isn't the 75th bird that fell the 90-percentile area more likely to produce a disciplined hunt? Is a young dog likely to run straight through 75 falls to "x"? Do you factor all this in when placing dog #1 vs dog #75?
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    Last edited by Mark Littlejohn; 06-06-2013 at 04:32 PM. Reason: self defense

  3. #33
    Senior Member Aaron Homburg's Avatar
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    It has always been my experience when judging you visit with your co-judge about where you would like the bird to fall and then discuss what may or may not be a no-bird. Now that being said you always have a ton of factors to consider, shooters, wind, throwers etc. that can affect your flyer. The guys judging in a couple of weeks could probably say we want the flyer thrown behind your back and we want it to land in the area of a cowboy hat 50 yards away and the folks throwing and shooting could pull it off with ease I tend to write a lot of notes on flyers on the judging sheet so I can recall the action in my mind later.

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  4. #34
    Senior Member Hunt'EmUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MooseGooser View Post
    Huntemup

    from above:

    If both dogs 1 and 2 broke down and started their hunts in the AOF that my co judge and I predetermined, would'nt both dogs MARKED equally well?

    gooser
    A Tight short hunt in the center of AOF, could be graded as better than a longer wandering hunt still in AOF. If the purpose of the game was to rank one dog above another, and it had to be that mark, it could be done. However I'd think a judge who wants to make it out of town w/o being strung up, wouldn't want to use a single very interpretative hunt-mark to make his ranking. They'd probably setup something else to get a better answer. Now If the purpose was to pass a standard it doesn't matter, both dogs hunt in the AOF (0 1 2) both get a 1, both are equal.
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  5. #35
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    Because of the ever changing conditions, would or should the rationale that is used to design the curve be in a state of flux during the entire trial so not only would you have a curve for a hunt on a disident flier...you would customize it on a flier by flier basis.

    Perhaps that perceived unfairness is what the "no bird" is supposed to be used for.

    john
    Last edited by john fallon; 06-06-2013 at 04:35 PM.
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  6. #36
    Senior Member Ted Shih's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Robinson View Post

    I guess the point of my OP was, should we judge a Flyer with it's attendant unfairness and widely varying AOFs differently then we would the much more consistent dead bird throws? I noted on the other thread what a mentor of mine told me a long time ago, he has run dogs since the seventies, judged a lot including at least one National, unless the dog is just flat lost on the flyer with a stupid out of the area hunt, he doesn't even draw the flyer line on his sheet. If we were judging in Canada, no flyers, it would be easier to stick to the rulebook that says the go bird's AOF should be considered to be smaller than memory birds.
    I judge the flyer. I think that a flyer mark like other marks involves a dog's using its eyes to get to the AOF and then using its nose to find the bird. It is more variable than a dead bird, yes. But, I like a dog that can problem solve a flyer. I think that dogs that are trained on lots of flyers are better at the problem solving than dogs that are not trained on them - imagine that.

    I will note if the fall is unusual - long, in, etc. - and will note if a dog does an exceptional job on a difficult bird. I will also note if I think a dog does a poor job on the flyer - for example, setting up camp behind the guns when the bird was visible and clearly flighted away from the guns. In my book, I will draw the path of the dog, but more importantly, where the dog begins its hunt, which direction its first turn is, etc. Like all things when you judge, the more notes you take, I think the better you can recall what a dog does.

    I think that judging is both an art and a science. Science provides the framework for judging. Art is the application of performance within the framework. It is not a precise calculus, no statistical bell shaped curve is drawn. And that is why different judges approach the task differently. But, I don't think you can - nor to I think you should - program a computer to analyze the factors and plot a algorithm for analysis.
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  7. #37
    Senior Member MikeBoley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Shih View Post
    I judge the flyer. I think that a flyer mark like other marks involves a dog's using its eyes to get to the AOF and then using its nose to find the bird. It is more variable than a dead bird, yes. But, I like a dog that can problem solve a flyer. I think that dogs that are trained on lots of flyers are better at the problem solving than dogs that are not trained on them - imagine that.

    I will note if the fall is unusual - long, in, etc. - and will note if a dog does an exceptional job on a difficult bird. I will also note if I think a dog does a poor job on the flyer - for example, setting up camp behind the guns when the bird was visible and clearly flighted away from the guns. In my book, I will draw the path of the dog, but more importantly, where the dog begins its hunt, which direction its first turn is, etc. Like all things when you judge, the more notes you take, I think the better you can recall what a dog does.

    I think that judging is both an art and a science. Science provides the framework for judging. Art is the application of performance within the framework. It is not a precise calculus, no statistical bell shaped curve is drawn. And that is why different judges approach the task differently. But, I don't think you can - nor to I think you should - program a computer to analyze the factors and plot a algorithm for analysis.


    Well said Ted.
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