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Thread: How do you judge flyer hunts?

  1. #21
    Senior Member John Robinson's Avatar
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    Knowing how many times actual results conflict with a judges preconceived idea of how a test will work, and the rule books use of words such as arbitrary and hypothetical, I think there is latitude to change your mind on what you originally thought were the boundaries of the AOF. That said I think whatever boundary you decide on should be consistent for all dogs.

    I guess the point of my OP was, should we judge a Flyer with it's attendant unfairness and widely varying AOFs differently then we would the much more consistent dead bird throws? I noted on the other thread what a mentor of mine told me a long time ago, he has run dogs since the seventies, judged a lot including at least one National, unless the dog is just flat lost on the flyer with a stupid out of the area hunt, he doesn't even draw the flyer line on his sheet. If we were judging in Canada, no flyers, it would be easier to stick to the rulebook that says the go bird's AOF should be considered to be smaller than memory birds.

  2. #22
    Senior Member Ted Shih's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeBoley View Post
    Not trying to high jack thread but, can the size of the AOF change as the test progresses?
    Conceptually, I think it can. Practically, hard to accomplish
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  3. #23
    Senior Member Ken Bora's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Shih View Post
    Conceptually, I think it can. Practically, hard to accomplish
    a question.
    have you ever had a large first series were after many dogs.
    dogs that have been sucked into the factors of your test and are failing all in the same way.
    Make an "area of hunt" I may have just coined that term? And this common area of hunt overlaps or is next to the actual area of fall. Imagin the original area of fall as a circle and this new formed area of hunt an oval layed on top. Will this expanded area of hunt change your view as a judge (Ted, all) of your original area of fall?

    edit- for the dogs running later in the order?
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  4. #24
    Senior Member EdA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Robinson View Post
    Knowing how many times actual results conflict with a judges preconceived idea of how a test will work, and the rule books use of words such as arbitrary and hypothetical, I think there is latitude to change your mind on what you originally thought were the boundaries of the AOF. That said I think whatever boundary you decide on should be consistent for all dogs.

    I guess the point of my OP was, should we judge a Flyer with it's attendant unfairness and widely varying AOFs differently then we would the much more consistent dead bird throws? I noted on the other thread what a mentor of mine told me a long time ago, he has run dogs since the seventies, judged a lot including at least one National, unless the dog is just flat lost on the flyer with a stupid out of the area hunt, he doesn't even draw the flyer line on his sheet. If we were judging in Canada, no flyers, it would be easier to stick to the rulebook that says the go bird's AOF should be considered to be smaller than memory birds.
    Pertinent to the discussion it is important to remember that each dog's flier is his flier and not the ones before. I think the scent of a bird to a dog is different than the scent of an old fall or feathers from a previous fliers so to discount the exceptional mark is an erroneous conclusion as it is to discount a poor mark. The ability to evaluate the difference and it's importance is a learned skill.

    I know the difference between an exceptional mark on a flier and a poor mark on a flier, the definition does not lend itself well to typed words on the internet. This hypothetical exercise is good to produce things for judges to consider but there is no substitute for time in the field shooting fliers and watching all levels of dogs deal with them, that is how one learns to evaluate these things. Nothing is more revealing than watching dog work in the field. Most of us have done it to a greater or lesser degree depending on our age and the length of our addiction.

  5. #25
    Senior Member John Robinson's Avatar
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    Ken the one thing that might be easier for field trial judges versus HT judges is the fact that we are judging the dogs relative to each other, we are looking at ways to separate the dogs in a fair and impartial manner. I have a feeling the situation you describe would work itself out one way or another. either all dogs would do as you describe and be called back or some would do it and others not in which case we have something else to look at at the end of the day.

    Just to show how actual test can surprise judges, I once judged an Amateur with Rick Vandebrake, a wonderful, super knowledgeable judge, we set up what we thought was a tough triple with an ingeniously place (we thought) check-down bird. We missed the little rabbit trail that led right to the bird from a point about sixty yards away. After about three dogs ran, hitting that little hole in the brush and popping up right at the bird, we started just drawing a line to the bird if the dog hit that rabbit hole. Our two bird with a flyer test turned into a one bird test. We still got answers on the long bird, but that short bird just became a waste of time. Oh well.

    John

  6. #26
    Senior Member John Robinson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EdA View Post
    Pertinent to the discussion it is important to remember that each dog's flier is his flier and not the ones before. I think the scent of a bird to a dog is different than the scent of an old fall or feathers from a previous fliers so to discount the exceptional mark is an erroneous conclusion as it is to discount a poor mark. The ability to evaluate the difference and it's importance is a learned skill.

    I know the difference between an exceptional mark on a flier and a poor mark on a flier, the definition does not lend itself well to typed words on the internet. This hypothetical exercise is good to produce things for judges to consider but there is no substitute for time in the field shooting fliers and watching all levels of dogs deal with them, that is how one learns to evaluate these things. Nothing is more revealing than watching dog work in the field. Most of us have done it to a greater or lesser degree depending on our age and the length of our addiction.
    That's kind of why I started the thread. I had an interesting experience last weekend where my much more talented dog hunted the heck out of the flyer while my so-so marker absolutely pinned his. Now I know every dog has his day and any good marker can fall off, and to be truthful, Alex marked lights out all weekend, for some reason he was really on, but there was also some luck involved here. Gus's bird fell right in the middle of where most birds landed, the grass was tall and wet hiding the birds completely and there was a lot of scent from maybe 25-30 prior dogs, so it took him awhile to find the one spot where his bird lay, while Alex got a very long flyer well away from all the other scent. To his credit he ran right to the bird, but so did Gus. I guess it just showed me how much luck effects the flyer more than any other bird.

  7. #27
    Senior Member MooseGooser's Avatar
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    What precisely constitutes the "area of the ‘fall’ " defies accurate definition; yet, at the outset of every test, each Judge must arbitrarily define its hypothetical boundaries for himself, and for each bird in that test, so that he can judge whether dogs have remained within his own concept of "area of the ‘fall,’ ’’ as well as how far they have wandered away from "the area’’ and how much cover they have disturbed unnecessarily. In determining these arbitrary and hypothetical boundaries of the "area of the ‘fall,’ ’’ due considerations should be given to various factors: (1) the type, the height and the uniformity of the cover, (2) light conditions, (3) direction of the prevailing wind and its intensity, (4) length of the various falls, (5) the speed of individual dogs, (6) whether there is a change in cover (as from stubble to plowed ground, or to ripe alfalfa, or to machine-picked corn, etc.) or whether the "fall’’ is beyond a hedge, across a road, or over a ditch, etc., and, finally, and most important, (7) whether one is establishing the "area of the ‘fall’ ’’ for a single, or for the first bird a dog goes for, in multiple retrieves, or for the second or the third bird, since each of these should differ from the others. In general, the "area of the ‘fall’ ’’ for a single should be relatively small; the area for a first retrieve in a "double’’ should be smaller than for the second bird, and both of these should be larger in a "triple,’’ and larger still for the third bird in it. Also, "the area’’ for short retrieves should certainly be smaller than for longer retrieves. Since there are so many conditions and variables to be taken into consideration, it is obvious that each Judge, and for every series, must attempt to define for himself a hypothetical "area of the ‘fall’ ’’ for each bird, and then judge the dogs accordingly. However, the penalties inflicted should vary in their severity, depending on the distance which individual
    dogs wander out of the area, the frequency of such wanderings, the number of birds mismarked in a given test, and by the amount of cover disturbed in these meanderings. Dogs which disturb cover unnecessarily, clearly well out of the area of the "fall,’’ either by not going directly to that area, or by leaving it, even though they eventually find the bird without being handled, should be penalized more severely than those handled quickly and obediently to it.


    I am working on my assigned homework!! It has taken me a LONG time to digest the above...

    I bolden in red some things Ifelt important.

    What I am getting from this discusiion and the fact Ted sent me to the rule book,, it seems to me its hard to evaluate an AOF by just discussing on the internet.. You have to see the lay of the land, and whats involved to determine how large the AOF is,, and THAT can be subjective based on the opinion of said Judges that day..

    Anm I close???

    Gooser


    Last edited by MooseGooser; 06-06-2013 at 01:47 PM.
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  8. #28
    Senior Member Gun_Dog2002's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MooseGooser View Post
    What precisely constitutes the "area of the ‘fall’ " defies accurate definition; yet, at the outset of every test, each Judge must arbitrarily define its hypothetical boundaries for himself, and for each bird in that test, so that he can judge whether dogs have remained within his own concept of "area of the ‘fall,’ ’’ as well as how far they have wandered away from "the area’’ and how much cover they have disturbed unnecessarily. In determining these arbitrary and hypothetical boundaries of the "area of the ‘fall,’ ’’ due considerations should be given to various factors: (1) the type, the height and the uniformity of the cover, (2) light conditions, (3) direction of the prevailing wind and its intensity, (4) length of the various falls, (5) the speed of individual dogs, (6) whether there is a change in cover (as from stubble to plowed ground, or to ripe alfalfa, or to machine-picked corn, etc.) or whether the "fall’’ is beyond a hedge, across a road, or over a ditch, etc., and, finally, and most important, (7) whether one is establishing the "area of the ‘fall’ ’’ for a single, or for the first bird a dog goes for, in multiple retrieves, or for the second or the third bird, since each of these should differ from the others. In general, the "area of the ‘fall’ ’’ for a single should be relatively small; the area for a first retrieve in a "double’’ should be smaller than for the second bird, and both of these should be larger in a "triple,’’ and larger still for the third bird in it. Also, "the area’’ for short retrieves should certainly be smaller than for longer retrieves. Since there are so many conditions and variables to be taken into consideration, it is obvious that each Judge, and for every series, must attempt to define for himself a hypothetical "area of the ‘fall’ ’’ for each bird, and then judge the dogs accordingly. However, the penalties inflicted should vary in their severity, depending on the distance which individual
    dogs wander out of the area, the frequency of such wanderings, the number of birds mismarked in a given test, and by the amount of cover disturbed in these meanderings. Dogs which disturb cover unnecessarily, clearly well out of the area of the "fall,’’ either by not going directly to that area, or by leaving it, even though they eventually find the bird without being handled, should be penalized more severely than those handled quickly and obediently to it.


    I am working on my assigned homework!! It has taken me a LONG time to digest the above...

    I bolden in red some things Ifelt important.

    What I am getting from this discusiion and the fact Ted sent me to the rule book,, it seems to me its hard to evaluate an AOF by just discussing on the internet.. You have to see the lay of the land, and whats involved to determine how large the AOF is,, and THAT can be subjective based on the opinion of said Judges that day..

    Anm I close???

    Gooser


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  9. #29
    Senior Member Hunt'EmUp's Avatar
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    Dog 2 was on, not only did he pin his flyer, he pinned his flyer, out of the intended Area and didn't fall prey to the massive scent pile where everyone else's bird had fallen. Basically saved the judges from having to think about significantly different flyer-hunt circumstances. The adage "It's not difficult when you know where they are" comes to mind"

    1st dog had to deal with massive scent pile factors that most of the other contenders did, if he hunted I'd assume many of the others did as well, except perhaps those running earlier. Hunting happens with flyers in cover, flyers will always have a higher degree of uncertainty. Thus we keep intelligent hunts in the AOF in for that particular mark, chalk it up to "flyers", use additional marks that have a less degree of uncertainty to separate the field.

    AOF in HT-HRC is considered to increase with time, in a triple the last mark down AOF is considered slightly smaller than 2nd which is slightly smaller than 1st. At least that's what I remember from the Judging seminar. Wouldn't really matter in FT's the dog who marks better than the others overall is 1st, somebody's always seems to "know" where they are, and a smaller hunt is better than a large. Thus I don't see how AOF matters, unless it's used for determining who to keep in for the next series.

    AOF, Area of Fall = an amount of space a dog is given that shows that he is intelligently hunting a mark that he knows is there, Outside AOF is just hunting giving up on a mark and having no definite idea of where exactly the mark is.
    Last edited by Hunt'EmUp; 06-06-2013 at 03:26 PM.
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  10. #30
    Senior Member MooseGooser's Avatar
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    Huntemup

    from above:

    If both dogs 1 and 2 broke down and started their hunts in the AOF that my co judge and I predetermined, would'nt both dogs MARKED equally well?

    gooser
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