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View Poll Results: What group do you fall into...

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  • Group A

    1 1.41%
  • Group B

    61 85.92%
  • Group C

    9 12.68%
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Thread: Judging Marks

  1. #11
    Senior Member Lisa Van Loo's Avatar
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    All marks count. 2 out of 3 ain't bad. Pull up his socks in the water & land/water series, and it's all good.

    I voted B.

    Lisa
    "Go sell crazy someplace else. We're all stocked up here." - Jack Nicholson in As Good As It Gets

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  2. #12
    Senior Member Gun_Dog2002's Avatar
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    Default Re: Judging Marks

    Quote Originally Posted by KJB
    Quote Originally Posted by Gun_Dog2002
    Zero him and drop him, the first two marks didn't count as they were just to setup the key bird.
    What the *bleep*? I haven't read all of the AKC HT rules, but is this acceptable?
    Tina (I voted B)
    In some cases perhaps. As a judge, you may setup a test that has two difficult marks and third in your face flyer that lands 20 yards in front of the dog belly up in the water. Now from a marking perspective, it really is not that much of a mark. But it sure does test a dogs training and ability to remember the other two marks in the face of big distraction. As a B group type of judge, I would say that mark gets a NA on my score sheet, goes towards trainability and the other two marks are truly scored as a mark. That being said, sometimes depending on the order the dog picks up the marks, it gets a score?.

    /Paul

  3. #13
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    Default Re: Judging Marks

    Quote Originally Posted by Gun_Dog2002
    In some cases perhaps. As a judge, you may setup a test that has two difficult marks and third in your face flyer that lands 20 yards in front of the dog belly up in the water. Now from a marking perspective, it really is not that much of a mark. But it sure does test a dogs training and ability to remember the other two marks in the face of big distraction. As a B group type of judge, I would say that mark gets a NA on my score sheet, goes towards trainability and the other two marks are truly scored as a mark. That being said, sometimes depending on the order the dog picks up the marks, it gets a score?.

    /Paul
    Thanks, Paul, your last sentence makes perfect sense to me - I can see the logic of 1 mark not really testing "marking" in a "stand alone" sense, but I definitely agree the dog could do a poor job of marking that bird and thus the dogs performance on that mark should be scored. But I was disturbed at the idea of ONLY the middle bird mattering - do it, get a score, handle 2x and get dropped seems kinda inflexible to me...it all just depends, I guess. It would really become an interesting exercise if we were talking about the 1st series of the Master National, eh? :P
    Everybody's a !@#$ing expert.

  4. #14
    Senior Member Gun_Dog2002's Avatar
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    Did I mention that one Group A member was a former MN judge. I think though that he aspires to be a group b member by always giving the third mark a score of 1 to keep the dog in the game longer for evaluation. He only puts down a zero on the mark when he is truly finished. But he did feel a zero on one mark in a series counted as a zero for the series.

    /Paul

  5. #15
    Senior Member Doug Main's Avatar
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    I don't like scoring all three marks of a tripple and averaging the score. Like is suggested in B. It does not put enough importance on the "Key" marks.

    I score the whole tripple a single score, up or down from a 7. Where a 7 is what I deem is acceptable for a Master. (Remember a 5 average can still pass.) Per the discription I would score this a 4 or 5. It would be called back. I would expect a master to do a tripple without handling.

  6. #16
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    i see they haven't worn out that pyramid triple yet!

    this is the problem with those presentations. instead of discussing what makes for a quality marking test that can be scored relatively easily and gives the dog a good opportunity to mark all the birds, they dwell on details surrounding a poor setup.

    group a judges are people who don't want to be bothered with judging. chop-chop and get on to the next round of elimination.

    group b judges are trying hard to make to deal fairly with the participants, but their method sets them up to pass some very marginal performances.

    group c doesn't want to be bogged down by details, so they have a rigid framework for determining failure.

    i judge similar to what Doug has suggested. if my co-judge and i have 3 marks in a test, i score all 3. but, i will weight the individual marks according to difficulty.

    i don't feel i have the luxury of throwing marks in a test i won't be scoring. i want all 9 or 10 of them to count.-paul
    there's no good reason to fatten up a retriever.

  7. #17
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    Better mark without any handles for the remainder of the test.
    HRCH Daniels Sonny Slough

  8. #18
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    are you saying that a dog that mis-marks 1 bird out of 9 is on the bubble AS A HUNTING COMPANION?

    that's what we're supposed to be sorting out; the dogs that are not suitable vs. the ones who are...........-paul
    there's no good reason to fatten up a retriever.

  9. #19
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    I have to come down with Paul on this one .
    The long memory bird of a triple
    After agreeing on the size of AOF. The judges should then assign a degree of difficulty to each mark and the memory bird gets the highest DOD.
    john
    "i guess the old saying 'those of us that think we know everything annoy those of you that does' " --bobbyb 9/13/06

    "A Good Dog is a Good Dog"

  10. #20
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    A master dog is to be a "finished" retriever.
    Marking is of primary importance.
    Handling on a mark in a Master should be penalized more than at the Senior Level.

    From the description the dog not only failed to show memory of the one bird it was in the process of returning to a previous retrieved bird when it was handled to area of the forgotten mark.
    All marks count to different degrees. This dog has shown that it could not mark the triple and was not trained to line well enough not to return to an old fall. IMHO drop him!
    But that is probalby why I don't/won't judge HTs. :P

    Tim

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