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Thread: Judging Marks

  1. #21
    Senior Member Gun_Dog2002's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KJB
    It would really become an interesting exercise if we were talking about the 1st series of the Master National, eh? :P

    Ya, not sure I want to go there. I can say one of the Group A judges in the room did this last year in a test locally. Dropped every dog that handled in the first series, only dogs that picked up clean we advanced to series 2. In the end 3 or 4 of 40+ passed. That was an ugly gallery. I sure wish the judge with him had been a group b or c judge. Glad I didn?t run it. Interestingly Joe only stated that it was really up to the judges, and as long as they filled out the scores on the sheet they had fulfilled the AKC requirements. He wouldn?t comment on whether it was the right thing to do or not. It was a judge?s decision.

    /Paul

  2. #22
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    I try to judge the whole loaf rather than one slice and to be a little Solomonic while I'm at it
    john
    "i guess the old saying 'those of us that think we know everything annoy those of you that does' " --bobbyb 9/13/06

    "A Good Dog is a Good Dog"

  3. #23
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    gee Tim,

    at the national ft's there are usually dogs WHO ARE FINALISTS that have handled in a prior series. i don't see how you can eliminate a dog as not being a finished hunting dog for the same type of error.........-paul
    there's no good reason to fatten up a retriever.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by paul young
    gee Tim,

    at the national ft's there are usually dogs WHO ARE FINALISTS that have handled in a prior series. i don't see how you can eliminate a dog as not being a finished hunting dog for the same type of error.........-paul
    The difference of comparing dog to dog vs dog to "standard".

    Tim

  5. #25
    Senior Member Jerry's Avatar
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    The scenario, as presented, brings in a whole bunch of Lisa's "it depends".
    How many dogs, how much time, and a bunch or others.

    Not totally sure about the HT rules but to paraphrase the Ft Rules, a fault committed in an early series may not be justification for elimination at that time because the judges don't know that all the other dogs will not commit that same fault in later series. However, that fault may very well be justification for dropping in a later series even if the dogs work has been perfect after the fault. Something like that.

    Jerry
    "Where The Hell Is Bedias, TX?"

  6. #26
    Senior Member K G's Avatar
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    The difference of comparing dog to dog vs dog to "standard".....
    Where in the Standard do you get that this type of performance deserves to failed summarily?

    Keith Griffith
    I keep my PM box full. Use email to contact me: rockytopkg@aol.com.

  7. #27
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    As I admitted (before you point it out ) I don't judge HT.

    The standard does state:

    " The ability to mark accurately is of primary importance.
    and under Master:
    Dogs may be handled on marks but must be scored with greater stringency than Senior Hunting dogs in Marking and/or Perseverance."

    This dog was not only handled but handled to the area because it was in the act of returning to an old fall. The handle in this case was a salvage move by the handler to prevent that zero. The dog didn't have a clue.

    A standard is a unit of measure for comparison. Maybe a Senior dog can be handled to an area but if a Master dog is to be "scored with greater stringency" it doesn't seem this type of performance would meet a judge's standard.

    Tim

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Carrion
    As I admitted (before you point it out ) I don't judge HT.

    The standard does state:

    " The ability to mark accurately is of primary importance.
    and under Master:
    Dogs may be handled on marks but must be scored with greater stringency than Senior Hunting dogs in Marking and/or Perseverance."

    This dog was not only handled but handled to the area because it was in the act of returning to an old fall. The handle in this case was a salvage move by the handler to prevent that zero. The dog didn't have a clue.

    A standard is a unit of measure for comparison. Maybe a Senior dog can be handled to an area but if a Master dog is to be "scored with greater stringency" it doesn't seem this type of performance would meet a judge's standard.

    Tim
    But Tim, even in your quote of the rules it says ?dogs may be handled on marks.? It doesn?t say a dog should fail, just be scored lower. At some point to many handles will result in the scores being low enough that it cannot average 5 in marking and would not pass. Also part 3 of rules shows that a quick handle is better than an extended hunt, not immediate disqualification.

    /Paul

    Part 3 A dog which disturbs cover unnecessarily, clearly well out of the area of the fall, either by not going directly to that area, or by leaving it, even though it eventually finds the bird without being handled, should be scored lower on its Marking than if it was handled quickly and obediently to the bird.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry
    The scenario, as presented, brings in a whole bunch of Lisa's "it depends".
    How many dogs, how much time, and a bunch or others.

    Not totally sure about the HT rules but to paraphrase the Ft Rules, a fault committed in an early series may not be justification for elimination at that time because the judges don't know that all the other dogs will not commit that same fault in later series. However, that fault may very well be justification for dropping in a later series even if the dogs work has been perfect after the fault. Something like that.

    Jerry
    HOLD on there big fella, I agree with a few "it depends" but judging to a standard has nothing to do with a. how many dogs or b. how much time.

  10. #30
    Senior Member Jerry's Avatar
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    I prefaced it with the disclaimer of my knowledge, or lack of, regarding HT's. But from my limited experience in HT's, I believe it's not a "ZERO" to handle on a mark.

    Jerry
    "Where The Hell Is Bedias, TX?"

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