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Thread: Judging Marks

  1. #31
    Senior Member K G's Avatar
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    This dog was not only handled but handled to the area because it was in the act of returning to an old fall. The handle in this case was a salvage move by the handler to prevent that zero. The dog didn't have a clue.
    The beauty of HT scoring is that, in this sort of situation, the dog need not be given a zero on the entire test, which is what the above quote advocates.

    In my scoring method, the third bird is worth 10 pts.....the other outside bird is worth 10 pts because it requires some memory...the "go" bird is worth 5 pts (stay with me...) for a total of 25 pts available on this test.

    So when the dog goes for the memory bird, he's got 15 pts (or 100% of the available points so far) in the bag....now, granted, I'd give him a -0- too for that last bird, but when he delivers to hand, he's got 15 out of a possible 25 pts for that series (60%, or .6) and the bird he blew was the toughest bird of the three. I'm not very likely to throw him out for one blown memory bird.

    However....

    If a Master dog shows me he can't remember a memory bird in two consecutive series, he won't be back for the third series unless there are valid mitigating circumstances....especially if one of the series is a double.

    "Hard line" thinking is part of the problem with judges in HTs today where we're trying to "test" dogs, not eliminate them. Set up fair and challenging tests where the dogs that do the work are rewarded and the ones that don't, aren't.

    Keith Griffith
    I keep my PM box full. Use email to contact me: rockytopkg@aol.com.

  2. #32
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    [quote="Keith Griffith"

    In my scoring method, the third bird is worth 10 pts.....the other outside bird is worth 10 pts because it requires some memory...the "go" bird is worth 5 pts (stay with me...) for a total of 25 pts available on this test.

    he's got 15 out of a possible 25 pts for that series (60%, or .6) and the bird he blew was the toughest bird of the three.

    Keith Griffith[/quote]

    I agree with YOUR scoring of having marks of different value. This discussion points out the lack of "standard". The guidlines call for:
    "A Judge must keep in mind the fact that he is evaluating numerically, a defined set of abilities .... A dog's abilities are scored against an established standard."

    The method of calulation of this value is not standardized. You used a 25 point system for the 3 birds and then used 15/25 to arrive at 60%. Another judge could use the same 15 points divide by 3 and claim the dog had an average score of 5 for the first 3 marks thrown. Another judge's standard may have all birds equal and therefore use a 30 point base score for a triple.

    There will always be a subjective component to judging but if we are passing out ribbons and titles based on a numerical score how that score is detemined must be better defined.
    At the end of the test that "7" is only as valid as the component scores that created that average.

    Tim

  3. #33
    Senior Member K G's Avatar
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    But you'd still drop the dog for getting a -0- on one bird? However a judge scores marks and the average score at the end sort of become moot if you do.

    Just tryin' to stay on topic.....

    Keith G.
    I keep my PM box full. Use email to contact me: rockytopkg@aol.com.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by paul young
    are you saying that a dog that mis-marks 1 bird out of 9 is on the bubble AS A HUNTING COMPANION?

    that's what we're supposed to be sorting out; the dogs that are not suitable vs. the ones who are...........-paul
    Tim, the standard does not call for perfection. Paul's point is valid, in that the whole test/all series are essentially judged collectively at the end of the day. Of course at anytime a dog may have a major snafu that eliminates him from further participation, but not the scenerio given for this thread.

  5. #35
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    The whole Ht scoring system is based on numerical averaging.
    It's with those that cannot grasp this concept, that we have the most trouble.
    john
    "i guess the old saying 'those of us that think we know everything annoy those of you that does' " --bobbyb 9/13/06

    "A Good Dog is a Good Dog"

  6. #36
    Senior Member Doug Main's Avatar
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    Keith wrote:
    If a Master dog shows me he can't remember a memory bird in two consecutive series, he won't be back for the third series unless there are valid mitigating circumstances....especially if one of the series is a double.
    I don't disagree with your conclusion. However, I don't think that most people judging HT would come to the same conclusion.

    I do think that John is partially correct in identifying the problem:
    The whole Ht scoring system is based on numerical averaging.
    It's with those that cannot grasp this concept, that we have the most trouble.
    I don't think enough people score marginal work as truely marginal by the current scoreing system as a (1-4). At the same time they score - acceptable (but not really exceptional work) with 9's and 10's. As a result, too much marginal work gets passed.

    Part of this comes from the 5 average being deemed passable. I can understand it in a 2 series test like Senior. But in a 3 series test, should we really allow marginal work to pass?

  7. #37
    Senior Member K G's Avatar
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    Tim Carrion wrote:

    The method of calulation (sic) of this value is not standardized.
    You're right....that's why judges need to discuss this prior to running the first dog. Each retrieve may or may not deserve the same point value.


    You used a 25 point system for the 3 birds and then used 15/25 to arrive at 60%. Another judge could use the same 15 points divide by 3 and claim the dog had an average score of 5 for the first 3 marks thrown.
    If 5 were the maximum score that judge allowed for each of the first three birds, dividing by three would be fine, as long as they convert the score to a basis of 10 since that's how the AKC HT regs/guidelines say to score it. Otherwise, I'd wonder how they got past the 3rd grade......


    Another judge's standard may have all birds equal and therefore use a 30 point base score for a triple.
    I would venture to say that this is the way the great majority of judges do score. I think this inflates marking scores and allows them to pass dogs that otherwise shouldn't based on the averages at the end.


    Doug Main wrote:

    I don't think enough people score marginal work as truly marginal by the current scoring system as a (1-4). At the same time they score - acceptable (but not really exceptional work) with 9's and 10's. As a result, too much marginal work gets passed.
    I think you are absolutely right.....but.....let me take it a step further....

    A zero is a failure. We'd all agree on that.

    1-3 is borderline failure, and probably pretty horrible work. Dogs that should be carried but have a serious chance of not passing at the end need to be scored here.

    4-6 is marginal work, with 4 at "almost horrible" and 6 at "almost tolerable." Single scores at these numbers will not likely result in a below-passing average at the end, all other work notwithstanding.

    7-8 is average to almost-above average. Not marginal, but not stellar.

    9 is above average, but not perfect.

    10 is perfect...no flaws.

    Part of this comes from the 5 average being deemed passable. I can understand it in a 2 series test like Senior. But in a 3 series test, should we really allow marginal work to pass?
    An interesting thought, Doug. I try very hard not to, which I think is what the Standard requires.

    It is the responsibility of the judges to agree at the end of the day on which dogs pass. Since the Master dog is supposed to be the finished hunting companion, it is critical that judges make absolutely, without-a-doubt sure that the dogs they "ribbon" deserve it. That's why it's important to make notes on the test, draw diagrams, note the sunlight conditions and direction of the wind, etc., so that the factors influencing the test and therefore the dog's work can be properly brought to bear in giving that final evaluation and score.

    This is why IMHO test setup and evaluation are the most critical aspects of AKC HTs. If there are sound, challenging, and safe tests before the dogs, then let 'em run and let the scores fall where they may. A lot of judges don't have a clue of what sort of dog work to expect when they set up a test....they just want to make sure they fulfill the requirements of the test level per the AKC....up to and including making sure the average scores of "marginal" dogs add up to passing scores at the end.

    Sometimes, the "benefit of the doubt" is misused, and that's a shame.

    And again, as always, IMHO.........

    Keith Griffith
    I keep my PM box full. Use email to contact me: rockytopkg@aol.com.

  8. #38
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    As I said earlier"The whole Ht scoring system is based on numerical averaging.
    It's with those that cannot grasp this concept, that we have the most trouble."

    In order for the HT scoring system to make any sense.
    Zero is a failure and Ten Points is a perfect score no matter which bird you are scoring.
    The difference in the penalty assessed for error is where the DOD comes into play.
    In the final analysis a perfect score MUST be 10 X the # of birds for 7 and 5 to mean anything
    john
    "i guess the old saying 'those of us that think we know everything annoy those of you that does' " --bobbyb 9/13/06

    "A Good Dog is a Good Dog"

  9. #39
    Senior Member K G's Avatar
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    How many AKC hunting tests have you judged, John?

    Keith Griffith
    I keep my PM box full. Use email to contact me: rockytopkg@aol.com.

  10. #40
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    1 Master , But I have put a MH on 2 or3 dogs, can read and understand .........and know a little bit about ciphering
    john
    "i guess the old saying 'those of us that think we know everything annoy those of you that does' " --bobbyb 9/13/06

    "A Good Dog is a Good Dog"

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