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Thread: old fall setups

  1. #1
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    Default old fall setups

    the last few training days there have been a few instances where my 15 month old CLM has had an oppurtunity to return to an old fall. i corrected one and was late on correcting before the bird boy helped him out. so i think we are in need of a couple training days that may entice him to return and correct. when i say it to myself it sounds like setting up for failure so if this isnt a common practice being a rookie let me know (nicely)

    what are some setups that a young dog may give into? ive racked my brain on how to place gunners and throws or is it more of a factor thing i.e. cover, slopes, etc? i planned on singles as i have 1 bird boy but setting out multiple throwers/stickmen and having him rotate stations? or should i use the electronics and run doubles/triples and leave bird boy in the car so he wont be more likely to stay around a live human?

  2. #2
    Senior Member Ken Bora's Avatar
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    do not leave your bird boy in the car, what help is that?
    keep your Bboy at the memory mark to "Hey, Hey" or shoot a second time or throw and throw and throw.
    a way to ease into it is toss your double. Bboy throws first, memory bird. Then your launcher tosses your go bird. pup gets go bird, comes to heal and looks out. Bboy tosses another duck. Then you take go bird from Rover and send and be set with arm signal or whatever for Bboy to call, shoot or even toss a 3rd duck. You want to pull Rover out to memory mark with action. So he never even thinks of going back to the go bird.


    BTW have you done bird in mouth single retrieves?
    "So what is big is not always the Trout nor the Deer but the chance, the being there. And what is full is not necessarily the creel nor the freezer, but the memory." ~ Aldo Leopold

    "The Greatest Obstacle to Discovery is not Ignorance -- It is the Illusion of Knowledge" ~ Daniel Boorstin

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    yes we have done bird in mouth single retrieves. and he takes help from the bird boy well and what you describe is bird boy help 101/Standard operating procedure. we are well past that stage of training. but with amateur bird boys its hard to convey what you want plus 9 times out of 10 they are watching the dog and not you for a signal.

    and in tests and trials the bird boy can't help so i was more concerned about allowing him to make the mistake then correct with a nick/"no here" and re-run the mark he switched from so the option to switch to old fall would be less inviting from the start. so in the dog's mind when he puts up a hunt and doesnt come up with it his first inclination isnt "well let me go look over here where i found that other one". it would be more along the lines of "well i know its not over there because everytime i go back there i get corrected"

    the only thing i could come up with that would work consistently would be to throw a double and while he's retrieving go bird have bird boy pull the memory mark so that a long hunt happens and see if that entices him to switch. if it doesnt give the dog a couple minutes to hunt and then have the bird boy "hey hey" and throw another one while he's hunting. this doesnt sound like a good method in my mind because it seems like its letting the dog doubt his marking ability but again i've been racking my brain on how to setup a switch oppurtunity.


    on a side note i did have a proud papa moment that same day as the original post: ran a 275 yard cold blind with wind blowing towards blind (2nd cold ever) and only took 2 whistles (1 silent left angle back at 125 out and 1 silent left angle back at 225). he was fighting the slope of the hill or he may of lined it.
    Last edited by blake_mhoona; 06-11-2013 at 10:14 AM.

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    Senior Member Jennifer Henion's Avatar
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    I was just think thinking about this yesterday as it seems my 15 mos old is also resorting to the old AOF at times.

    Wonder if it is a step in the development of the dog's thinking about their job and this game we are playing. And if they will mature and develop out of it after several bouts of no success with going to the old aof.

    Seems to me that correcting them at the old aof is not a concept they will understand, especially at this young age. May be wrong, though.

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    Senior Member Ken Bora's Avatar
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    conversely, instead of pulling the mark.
    you could salt the area of fall with a few more birds.
    Make the memory easy to find once he gets to area of fall. This takes the "Hunt" out of the memory and lets the dog simply get the mechanics down. Instead of setting up the dog to switch, set up the dog to succed.
    and even the most grizzled bird boys look away, at times. Happens to us all.
    "So what is big is not always the Trout nor the Deer but the chance, the being there. And what is full is not necessarily the creel nor the freezer, but the memory." ~ Aldo Leopold

    "The Greatest Obstacle to Discovery is not Ignorance -- It is the Illusion of Knowledge" ~ Daniel Boorstin

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    Senior Member fishduck's Avatar
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    If I was looking for corrections for returning to the old fall, I would shoot a flyer as the go bird. Have the memory bird with the line downwind of the flyer station. If needed retire the memory. Should achieve your goal. I had a young dog this weekend running singles off of multiple guns that decided the flyer station was more attractive than the dead bird station. This was before we even shot a flyer.
    Mark Land

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    I like to introduce the dog to running past old falls by running up a well mowed hill. 2 gun stations one short one long, fall of short is not exactly in line with fall of long but fairly tight. The marks are run as singles, short 1st then long. The long mark is a large white (cleanest one you have) and is thrown where it is visible from the line. When running the long mark have the thrower help with "hey hey" if the dog shows any sign of breaking down at the old fall.

    If your dog is proficient at running doubles come back the next day and run it as a double having the short gun retire after the dog picks up the short bumper 1st. again have the thrower help if the dog starts to break down.

    Bert
    Bert Rodgers

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    Quote Originally Posted by fishduck View Post
    If I was looking for corrections for returning to the old fall, I would shoot a flyer as the go bird. Have the memory bird with the line downwind of the flyer station. If needed retire the memory. Should achieve your goal. I had a young dog this weekend running singles off of multiple guns that decided the flyer station was more attractive than the dead bird station. This was before we even shot a flyer.
    flyers arent really an option as our weekday training is in the city. we have done flyers on the weekend but as of late he doesnt seem to be affected. he's taking more time to hunt the short flyer than the long mark. this could be attributed to the 5-6 previous shot flyers in the AOF though.

    ken i could salt the area but i'm using bumpers during the week. my stock of frozen ducks was destroyed during an ice storm in january where we had no power for 7 days. the ducks around here are all babies and wont be ready for another month or 2. i'm working on a hookup with a bird guy but his arent ready yet either.

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    Senior Member Ken Bora's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blake_mhoona View Post
    .....ken i could salt the area but i'm using bumpers during the week.......
    use what ya got.
    "So what is big is not always the Trout nor the Deer but the chance, the being there. And what is full is not necessarily the creel nor the freezer, but the memory." ~ Aldo Leopold

    "The Greatest Obstacle to Discovery is not Ignorance -- It is the Illusion of Knowledge" ~ Daniel Boorstin

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    Senior Member Rainmaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer Henion View Post
    I was just think thinking about this yesterday as it seems my 15 mos old is also resorting to the old AOF at times.

    Wonder if it is a step in the development of the dog's thinking about their job and this game we are playing. And if they will mature and develop out of it after several bouts of no success with going to the old aof.

    Seems to me that correcting them at the old aof is not a concept they will understand, especially at this young age. May be wrong, though.
    Returning to an old fall is not something a dog grows out of on its own, it is a part of training, same as cheating , etc. Some dogs require more than others, but it is one of those lifelong skills that takes regular maintenance of some sort. I have no idea how you'd "correct" your dog, as you are training "positive" without force or ecollar or whatnot, but, once a dog is at a finished level, yes, there is going to be a correction oftentimes for returning to an old fall, or perhaps help from a BB, it really depends on the dog and level/situation. But, letting a dog return to an old fall is not a good habit to establish, regardless of how you handle it.
    Kim Pfister, Rainmaker Labs

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