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Thread: old fall setups

  1. #21
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    I think it's a common problem with young dogs who see too much mechanically thrown marks. Put the remote equipment away or only run singles off the electronics. You cannot replace helpers in the field for teaching/training for switching. In some cases, I think it's merely confusion on a new concept and the dogs break down. Seen people get really tough on a dog for switching(I've been guilty of it) yet, probably really wasn't truly a crime because the set up may have been more than the dog had seen before or an unknown/trained concept.

    I'd make sure you have a set up which is simple and very well understood before any corrections start. That's where I've made a mistake before- That can snowball into a bunch of other problems.
    Last edited by Paul "Happy" Gilmore; 06-11-2013 at 12:01 PM.

  2. #22
    Senior Member roseberry's Avatar
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    blake,
    set up is typically hip pocket or reverse hip pocket(i can never keep them straight). ex. throw long bird left to right. set short bird to the left of line to long bird and left of line to long gunner. then throw short bird left to right "into hip pocket" of the long gunner. when run as double the dog picks up go bird(short bird) and is sent to the right of the "old fall" on line to the memory bird(long bird).

    imho, start wide and teach the concept. work the concept "tighter" in increments, over time so that you are sure the dog understands his mission. be careful of the wind when setting up initially to keep success high and temptation down. sooner or later as you work tighter and introduce an "unfavorable wind" as fishduck described you will get the opportunity to handle your dog(pressure), possibly stop give a verbal "no" and handle(more pressure) and possibly eventually a collar correction(which we all know you are dying to do)

    you are getting good advice here and /paul is spot on about two things, 1. "getting too tight too early is going to lead to issues with a young dog." and 2. any old dog can mark birds thrown in a pile and be taught a "concept". talent is what sees a bird down stares at it for six seconds then swings around 110 degrees for the tough go bird, comes back with it and hits your knee and lines up for the memory.

    but you can also handle it like the old scene from the 60's/70's country music variety show "hee haw". "nurse good body" brings roy "the patient" in to see archie "the doctor". roy says, "doc, my arm has been broke in three places!" doc replies, "well roy.......stay out of them places!"
    john mccallie

  3. #23
    Senior Member Rainmaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gun_Dog2002 View Post
    Frankly instead of setting the dog up to fail, by going to old fall, I'd teach him success in persevering for harder birds. Wide open double with difficult bird placement, teach that dog to trust its eyes and stick in there to pull the bird out. Getting to tight too early is going to lead to issues in a young dog.

    /Paul
    Yes, absolutely, dog should be brought along and taught, taught well, building on success. If a young dog is consistently returning to an old fall, something is probably out of kilter and not fair to the dog to correct. Depends on the dog and level and trainer, to decide if lack of effort or confusion. We do lots of singles off multiple stations because the marking has to be there first and foremost, the confidence and trust in the eyes and nose. Wide open doubles, increase difficulty gradually, simplify as needed without lowering the standard, BB help is irreplaceable especially when training a young dog. Correction comes when the dog has learned some accountability and returning to an old fall is an obvious violation. If it is a genuine mistake, dog gets help from BB. If lack of effort, dog gets sit nick sit and cast back to correct AOF. Letting a dog return to an old fall area and discover on its own that there's nothing there just isn't a technique I've encountered with anyone I've ever trained with, nor do I care for the old burn 'em to get 'em out of there method. Once pup commits to hunt in old fall, it's help time, as far as I'm concerned. If pup requires lots of help on marks repeatedly, again, something is off and throwing multiples probably isn't a great idea to help fix the problem.
    Kim Pfister, Rainmaker Labs

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rainmaker View Post
    Yes, absolutely, dog should be brought along and taught, taught well, building on success. If a young dog is consistently returning to an old fall, something is probably out of kilter and not fair to the dog to correct. Depends on the dog and level and trainer, to decide if lack of effort or confusion. We do lots of singles off multiple stations because the marking has to be there first and foremost, the confidence and trust in the eyes and nose. Wide open doubles, increase difficulty gradually, simplify as needed without lowering the standard, BB help is irreplaceable especially when training a young dog. Correction comes when the dog has learned some accountability and returning to an old fall is an obvious violation. If it is a genuine mistake, dog gets help from BB. If lack of effort, dog gets sit nick sit and cast back to correct AOF. Letting a dog return to an old fall area and discover on its own that there's nothing there just isn't a technique I've encountered with anyone I've ever trained with, nor do I care for the old burn 'em to get 'em out of there method. Once pup commits to hunt in old fall, it's help time, as far as I'm concerned. If pup requires lots of help on marks repeatedly, again, something is off and throwing multiples probably isn't a great idea to help fix the problem.
    its not constant. and prior to saturday i thought it was behind us. in the past when it was just me and the throwers i handled out of old falls and to me that has provided a crutch. now with a bird boy he's gotten plenty of help. it seems like it could be a crutch if too much of either is used. the dog knows if he stops hunting he can get a handle to the fall bird boy help. or if he gets out of the fall he can rely on the bird boy to help out. what's to say he won't put 2+2 together and say "hey if i return to the old fall i might get a nick but at least he'll handle me to the bird or that white jacket will show me where its at" that's why i'm leaning towards the "burn em to get em out of there" method. i dont take the info lightly i just know that with my dog and the level he's at he knows better from previous encounters. we went a few weeks without seeing it and saturday it popped up under a scenario he shouldnt have trouble with.

  5. #25
    Senior Member Rainmaker's Avatar
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    Blake, I'm not a pro, I don't like to address specific field training problems online, and I wasn't addressing your question, but Jennifer's, and only in a general manner of speaking. I guess if my dog needed help or handling on marks as much as you describe, I'd consider there to be a problem on marking, period, and address that first, before worrying about throwing multiples. I don't know you, your dog, dog's age/level, who trained it or how, so answering your specific question wasn't my intent, sorry.
    Kim Pfister, Rainmaker Labs

  6. #26
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    If he's stopped hunting, is he popping?

  7. #27
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    I seem to remember that, lol.
    Quote Originally Posted by fishduck View Post
    If I was looking for corrections for returning to the old fall, I would shoot a flyer as the go bird. Have the memory bird with the line downwind of the flyer station. If needed retire the memory. Should achieve your goal. I had a young dog this weekend running singles off of multiple guns that decided the flyer station was more attractive than the dead bird station. This was before we even shot a flyer.

  8. #28
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    At your dogs age it is far from behind you. Ai wouldn't try and set him up for a correction. Good bird boy help or a handle to the aof is what I would do.
    Quote Originally Posted by blake_mhoona View Post
    its not constant. and prior to saturday i thought it was behind us. in the past when it was just me and the throwers i handled out of old falls and to me that has provided a crutch. now with a bird boy he's gotten plenty of help. it seems like it could be a crutch if too much of either is used. the dog knows if he stops hunting he can get a handle to the fall bird boy help. or if he gets out of the fall he can rely on the bird boy to help out. what's to say he won't put 2+2 together and say "hey if i return to the old fall i might get a nick but at least he'll handle me to the bird or that white jacket will show me where its at" that's why i'm leaning towards the "burn em to get em out of there" method. i dont take the info lightly i just know that with my dog and the level he's at he knows better from previous encounters. we went a few weeks without seeing it and saturday it popped up under a scenario he shouldnt have trouble with.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by blake_mhoona View Post
    what's to say he won't put 2+2 together and say "hey if i return to the old fall i might get a nick but at least he'll handle me to the bird or that white jacket will show me where its at" that's why i'm leaning towards the "burn em to get em out of there" method.
    I don't know your dog or how he runs so this is my guess. Your dog now knows if I go to the area of the last fall I'll get burned (Don't go there). In training down the road, the memory bird is past the go bird and tight to that line. Your dog now doesn't want to run through the area bc he's been burned for going there near there in the past. I'm rather new to the game so my question for you is whats your next step after burning him?

  10. #30
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    kcrumpy: he doesnt know it yet as you can see in my OP i said i missed a correction on one and the other was nick handle to old fall. my intended steps would be "no here" while nicking. then if he lined up at the memory mark gunner (as if he knew there was a mark still out there) then resend or if he looked confused re-throw memory mark.

    paul: not popped completely more like give a glance for a milisecond and continue hunting. when we first started working setups he did pop but through the last month and half we have worked through it and it is 99% gone. with only the former statment happening.

    rainmaker: i guess somehow you took that two old falls on saturday and a few a month or so ago to mean alot? i'm talking out of a 100 or so derby training marks 6-10 at most. and actually most have come while running as singles rather than multiples
    Last edited by blake_mhoona; 06-11-2013 at 04:01 PM.

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