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NAFC!! Is there such an animal. A REAL AMATEUR TRAINED CHAMPION?

17K views 71 replies 40 participants last post by  Golddogs 
#1 ·
I was looking at the new Retriever News Mag. for June 2013. Congrats again to Chad & Traveler.
I was looking at the first winner NFC-AFC Major Vl.
Definition :Amateur- Not Professional

But, the winner was a NFC. Has there ever been a NAFC that was not Pro trained?

Is there a event where there are actual amateur trained dogs for a relevant title.

I have noticed that even in the Hunt test games there are really hardly any amateur trained dogs.

Notice: I am not knocking the pros - the people that have or want to get help with thier dogs.

A lot of the people that I see have at some point either have a pro take on a major part of thier training and take the credit for thier dog being called amateur trained . Is there anyone that has a real amateur trained dog & has reached a major event such as the NAFC?
 
#2 ·
I don't have a dog running the NAFC but my dodoes have his HRCH UH and is one pass from his MH title has derby JAMS and we even walked to the line in a AM in a ft and wasn't embarrassed at all and he is 100% amateur trained and he is only my second dog I have ever owned. Yeah he might never be a FC or AFC but to me it's about the journey.
 
#55 ·
cool story bro....
 
#3 ·
There's been quite a few. I believe ken Neil trains his own, Dennis Bath, Newt Cropper. Sorry if my list isn't super accurate, just going by what I see and I could be wrong. Many more I'm sure though. Just because they run the open, doesn't mean they're being run by a pro. Lots of ams run in the open and nat'l open.
 
#14 ·
There's been quite a few. I believe ken Neil trains his own, Dennis Bath, Newt Cropper. Sorry if my list isn't super accurate, just going by what I see and I could be wrong. Many more I'm sure though. Just because they run the open, doesn't mean they're being run by a pro. Lots of ams run in the open and nat'l open.
All of those you mention use pros for some portion of their dogs training. Dennis & Ken have routinely used a pro for young dog training to 18 mos - 2yrs & at least some problem solving thereafter. Ken trains with pros most every day. Not saying that's bad, it's just what they do (like most of us).

To the OP's question, it seems to be inferred that the NARC and the NAFC title is about amateur "trained" dogs when it was never envisioned as such. It originated to enable amateur handlers to compete among themselves for a nat'l title.
 
#4 ·
Lots of them...right off the top of my head

1974 NAFC Ray's Rascal - Ray Goodrich

1982 NAFC FC CNFC Piper's Pacer- Roy McFall

and I think NAFC NFC CNFC Wanapum Dart's Dandy- Charlie Hill
 
#9 · (Edited)
Bon,

Your going along way's back in time, I'm sure every year a certain percentage of the dogs Qualified are 100% Am trained, but if you go back and do the numbers on the dogs that make it to the final, those numbers are pretty slim. I would venture to say 95 % of ALL finalist's in the past have had a Pro put a hand over there head during some part of there training... Not that theres anything wrong with it but lets not be fooled by the fact that most of these dogs are and have been pro trained most of there life...
 
#5 · (Edited)
Is there anyone that has a real amateur trained dog & has reached a major event such as the NAFC?
My bitch, FC/AFC Oakdale Whitewater Devil Dog, has never been at a pro's or run by a pro although I have day trained with a pro a day or two here and a week there. She has qualified for several NAFC's but alas, has never been to one.

Roy McFall's FC/86(?)NAFC CNAFTCH Piper's Pacer was trained by Roy an amateur.

There are amateur trained dogs that make it to the NAFC every year that are amateur trained.

I wouldn't brood to much on pro vs amateur trained dogs. Think more about getting the best dog you can the best training you can.

This year, I know for sure that dog number 101 AFC Fishook Megan is entirely amateur trained by one of my training partners Eloy Garcia.
 
#17 ·
This is what I think I'm wondering about. I don't care that anyone trains better than me or what they have to do to get thier dog to where they want them.
It's just kinda like the Golf US Open. A real Am. can qualify & could win. I'm just wondering if there are dogs out there in this event that are like Howards that are (TRAINED) by real Am.
It would also be nice for real amateurs to have a place to compete against other amateurs without having to go up against the pros also. Or an event!!
If it is suppose to be an amatuer event an it is made up of so many pros then it kinda reminds me of the Little League World Series where you think you are competeing on the same level & then you find out the clean shaven kid that is really 18 has been blowing all your batters away is 18 instead of 13.
 
#6 ·
I was looking at the new Retriever News Mag. for June 2013. Congrats again to Chad & Traveler.
I was looking at the first winner NFC-AFC Major Vl.
Definition :Amateur- Not Professional

But, the winner was a NFC. Has there ever been a NAFC that was not Pro trained?

Is there a event where there are actual amateur trained dogs for a relevant title.

I have noticed that even in the Hunt test games there are really hardly any amateur trained dogs.

Notice: I am not knocking the pros - the people that have or want to get help with thier dogs.

A lot of the people that I see have at some point either have a pro take on a major part of thier training and take the credit for thier dog being called amateur trained . Is there anyone that has a real amateur trained dog & has reached a major event such as the NAFC?
Are you asking about dogs that qualified to run the National Am, or dogs that have titled NAFC?

A bunch of dogs running in this year's National Am are amateur trained.
 
#15 ·
A couple of Am trained are Sharon Gierman's
49. FC-AFC-CNFC-CAFC Taylorlab Calumet's Big Blue
111. AFC Mjolnir's There and Back Again

​OP notice the CNFC on Blue. Totally am trained.
 
#16 · (Edited)
Chris Hatch is 100% amateur. He bred Saber, he trained Saber, he runs Saber. This is Saber's 5th time he has qualified to run in a National Amateur. He and Chris were finalists in the 2011 National Am. Saber has had a great year so far.

I am keeping my fingerers crossed that this is the year for Chris and Saber. Keep your eye on #18. After 5 series, he is doing well.

Don is regretting now that he did not enter Ruby. He wishes he was there with his training partner facing each day's challenging tests with Chris (instead of painting our house). I never told him they could not go; it was his decision. We both now regret it as Ruby will be 9 years old the end of October. Well, there is always next year with an almost 10 year old with frost on her muzzle, right?

Helen
 
#19 ·
Not like it was years ago, you need the time, you have to have the help, you have to have access to birds/flyers, you have to have money, can't drink frozen water too long, need decent training areas, etc., etc. I have been on both sides of the fence FC/AFC totally amateur trained struggled every day , another FC/AFC had pro enter picture a few winter trips, national finalist. What one would you want? Thump your chest and say I did it all by my lonesome, but, just couldn't make the dog "to be all they can be". Me thinks I would like to have all I can get! Oh by the way you have to have a good dog too! This amateur thing always amuses me, usually by those who haven't made the journey at a high level. It ain't easy.
 
#22 ·
Being new to this and not knowing much about it, I would still have to say that an NAFC is an NAFC no matter how it got there.
It appears to take a lot more, to attain that status, than just having some or a lot of professional training.
Doesn't everyone get SOME professional help in one way or another?
 
#24 ·
Being new to this and not knowing much about it, I would still have to say that an NAFC is an NAFC no matter how it got there.
It appears to take a lot more, to attain that status, than just having some or a lot of professional training.
Doesn't everyone get SOME professional help in one way or another?
No. I know lots of people who did it ALL BY THEMSELVES!! :roll: They just naturally knew it all from the start.

JS
 
#26 ·
I certainly support those that use pros. We use a pro for our young dog work.

All of Arnie & Linda Erwin's dogs are 100% amateur trained including Suncrest Wild Oats, a 2011 NAFC finalist.
 
#27 ·
I just watched Jerry Patopea's interview on the retriever news blog regarding the 5th series. A difficult test and more difficult for others depending on the time of day they ran and what the condition changes were when they ran. Per Jerry... wind changes, lighting changes (poor visibility for the dogs who ran in the evening, great for the dogs who ran this morning. Sounds like "the normal" for a field trial, except the 5th series sounds like it is a lot tougher than something faced at a weekend trial.

Because of the heat, humidity, and a lot of hills, I am feeling for the older dogs at this trial who would probably run the 5th series better under different conditions.
EdA mentioned how out of gas his dog was... I think a relatively younger dog as compared to the 8, 9, and 10 year olds who are running uphill marks in the heat and humidity. Beautiful scenery, but a tough-tough test. A lot of really good dogs have been picked up or have handled.

It will be interesting to find out at the end of the 5th how many are still in it.
Helen
 
#29 ·
Good points... Normally old dogs fare well in nationals because they handle the stress well and don't get too up... But this test sounds like it may be too much for most older dogs, even if they are in good shape. (if they are running in the heat of the day)
 
#30 · (Edited)
From its beginning the Amateur stake was run for the most part, by well to do owners taking their pro trained dogs and competing with their piers, It was then, and still is primarily about the handler's ability to handle a well trained dog . Actually even before they competed against just their piers, some prevailed http://caninechronicle.com/current-articles/retriever-field-trials-the-early-days/.... Why do we now want to draw a distinction, singling out an isolated few who do not use a pro trained dog for some special recognition.

"If you cant beat them change the rules" regards.

john
 
#33 · (Edited)
Why do we now want to draw a distinction, singling out an isolated few who do not use a pro trained dog for some special recognition.
john
John,

I don't know if it is "special" recognition, but I think folks who are amateurs take note and give recognition to those dogs who have not been trained by pros and who have been trained and handled by their amateur owners and have done well. The amateur trained and handled dog deserves this recognition of their success as does their amateur owner-trainer-handler. Why? Because amateur trained and handled dogs who reach the National Am level are few and far between.

I think that is important and useful to recognize those dogs and their amateur owners because it gives every amateur to believe that they, too, can also be successful with their dog -- and be in a National Amateur some day.

Field trialing is a tough, competitive game. I don't have the percentage, but I will guess that most dogs running in Amateur stakes at weekend trials are dogs who have been pro trained. It's been my observation that the owner takes them off the pro's truck and runs them, and then they go back on the truck. Some are successful in the Amateur, some are not. There are FC's out there who have no AFC title.

Caveat: a successful amateur owner-handler on the West Coast is Andy Kahn. Andy has very good dogs who have had pro training since they were little. Andy also trains his dogs a lot with his pro trainer. He isn't just an owner who shows up Saturday morning to take his dogs off the truck to run them in the Amateur. Andy also worked hard to learn to become a good handler. Thus, Andy is an amateur-owner-handler who is successful. He works hard at it; he has earned his success which is why he qualified 3 dogs for this year's National Am.

Helen
 
#40 ·
Very nice Ms Helen
A lot of what everyone has said about this is true. I was wondering if there was an actual amateur trainer that has kinda done it on thier on. That seem to be to me someone that would really deserve the highest praise. To go up against such tough professionally trained dogs & come out the victor. They would really have to be very proud of themselves & that fine dog they have too.
It also would be nice even if there was only one event a year to have a truly amateur event. I really don't know how you could do that. When I think of amateur trained, I think of someone using more books, advice & help of that nature than paid labor & then I can take it from here type training. To the ones that are doing amateur style at that level WOW I really do wish I could do what you are doing. Very nice job guys & girls.

I don't know how you could get people to be honest enough to say thier dog is really amateur trained & it really be, but it would be nice for all amateur trainers to at least step to the line knowing that in this event there are going to be better dogs & better handlers than you, but it is because you a amateur trainer did not do as good a job with your dog as the next amateur. Not because 60 hours a week of professional training was behind your dog.
Just more of a level playing field.

I know we all have self confidence, but can you imagine being in the holding blind (Mr True Amateur) & at the line is Danny Farmer & behind you is Mike Lardy. Really! Nothing amateur about that.
 
#36 ·
Re my caveat: another successful amateur owner-trainer-handler on the west coast is Michael Moore. The same things I said about Andy Kahn could be said about Michael. His dogs are good. They have received training by a pro, but Michael also trains his dogs. He worked hard to become a good handler. Michael Moore is an amateur who is successful. He works hard at it. I rank his bitch Brook as one of the best females that has ever run on the west coast. I am glad I have been able to watch her in trials since she was little. Now Brook is a Grand Old Lady running her umpteenth National Am. She's #115 and is going to be running the 6th series. Cheer for her. She deserves every accolade.
Helen
 
#37 ·
It can be done. I had two dogs in the 2005 National Am when I was retired and did all their training. I would get two bird boys and head to my land in Loyal OK, which has a thirty acre pond, great terrain, a really nice summer training spot in Oklahoma where you can run long marks in shallow water. Big league blinds too. I would run a complete field trial consisting of land triple, three peat land blinds, big water blinds, and a big triple water test. I also ran an ABCD drill every time out. We would be done in three hours and home by noon in the summer. My dogs were very competitive and one was an AFC.

Now I work and try to get in training at the house. I have a nice technical pond and some decent land, but it's not the same. The dogs know all the blinds and all the spots that marks ought to be thrown. I have often said that I have best non-trained dogs in our circuit! Time is the most precious commodity for an Amateur trainer with no pro help.
 
#44 ·
Chris Hatch, a full-time insurance agent with his own insurance business. He does sneak away to do some training on a Wed. or some other week day if he can get away from the office. He is a grandpa so usually Sunday is a day to be spent with kids and grandkids. After work he goes home and often trains by himself until dark-30.
 
#46 ·
Even amateurs, whose dogs have never been handled by a pro are generally still significantly influenced by a pro(s). It would be virtually impossible for an amateur to gain enough knowledge and technique from just deciding to start training his dogs one day to run FTs & be even a little successful. With that said & apart from extreme examples, I see no real separating factor to distinguish some amateurs from another. Sure we can distinguish the extremes, the totally pro-trained dog where the owner just shows up to handle the dog in an amateur stake versus the dog whose owner trains the dog virtually all the time & handles the dog in opens & amateur stakes. And of those in the latter category, many of those amateurs still train "with" pros, using the pros setups, birds and help. In my case, I have done all of the young dog training on all of my dogs except two. And I have done about 1/2 of the year's AA training without pro presence. In the other half of the year, I have trained "with" Dave Smith for about 3 months and the dogs have been trained by Dave Smith with me not there about 3 mos (I like to hunt & take a summer vacation too). I handle the dogs in both opens & Ams except for an avg of 3 trials (of approx 20) that I run each year. Sure Dave Smith would love to keep my dogs & run them himself (& he might even do it better) but I'm not in this game to be a spectator and by handling my dogs most all of the time, I know my dogs better than some pros know the ones they train because I only have 3-4 to keep up with.

So apart from the extremes noted, I think there is little distinction among most successful amateurs only a little gray. And for those amateurs who can train every day and have access to good grounds whenever, they have money in addition to time.........time & money being the foundation ingredients for success with some good eyesight and reaction skills thrown in to make them very competitive - and of course the main ingredient, a great dog.
 
#48 ·
A couple thoughts. Using the definition of amatuer vs pro to me has different values. I see folks that are so called amateurs with a truck load of dogs and have hundreds or thousands of acres of land to train on and train in large groups. Then I see a working stiff that trains by themselves during the week and weekends when they have time with a group. I know a bunch that fit in both category and no offense to Danny or Mike but could give a rat rump if they ran between them. If you look at the end of the day the am by percentage may be more successful entries vs wins/points.
 
#50 ·
NARCCS-Amateur owned and trained.

Post #43 really sums it up. People who have accomplished this goal- all while employed and raising a family TRUE amateurs are few- those whom I remember and by this I do not mean someone like myself who has relied heavily on Rex Carr, Andy Attar, Jim VanEngen, and Dave Rorem. Those that I can recall are Bob Willow and Ray Goodrich, a crane operator(he can move a lot of dirt fast) and an attorney who piloted his own plane and showed up too often in my geographical area, damn his dogs were good and Ray is a declining breed in today's society-HE IS A GENTLEMAN. What you have never heard of Ray? Well those determining the final ballot people apparently have not either. Ray Goodrich is 91 years old, lives in Santa Cruz, California. Ray today trains everyday and still competes in Licensed trials. So much for the present day.Ray has DoubleHeaders with two different dogs--Rascal and Brig.Ray judged a National Amateur Stake, Ray has won a National Amateur stake, Ray has gone up the ladder of National officer status and served as a National officer. Ray Incidentally owned the high point OPEN dog in the same year that the dog died (April from a training accident) YES Rascal had enough placements by April of the year in which he died to achieve the title "High Point Open Dog". Every 4 years the National Retriever Club has been granted permission to have full use of his property in Oakdale, Ca. where they have held their event. Without that venue there would be problems. Unfortunately through the years the POOH BAHS who ran the selection of candidates overlooked Ray for the RHOF.Primarily their interests lay with who had the most money to donate to The Bird Dog Foundation, those often were never active trainers only owners. I am not going to try to send out requests to name Ray as a candidate for the RHOF- often this leads to people being nominated who are deserving, yet whose credentials can't hold a candle to the record of Raymond Goodrich as a GENTLEMAN, a National WINNER and JUDGE, and a DoubleHeader winner-2 different dogs and four plus years as a National Officer, and every four years the host of the NRCCS. So who will this year's selection committee decide to include? I hope that whomever it is that they have added to ALL phases of our sport and then compiled a record. I for one will be casting my choice for nomination to Ray Goodrich before he dies-there are other worthy candidates, so let the games begin.
 
#51 ·
Thank you, Lanse, for your words on Ray Goodrich. Everything you have said about Mr. Goodrich is spot on. I have known him only as a handler for the past 12 years. Never a problem. Always there and ready to run before it is time to run his dog. Always gracious. As you said, a true GENTLEMAN. He is MR. GOODRICH and always will be to me and many others. He is due every respect. He has earned it.

Helen
 
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