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Thread: NAFC!! Is there such an animal. A REAL AMATEUR TRAINED CHAMPION?

  1. #61
    Senior Member Brad Turner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Robinson View Post
    Exactly! I really don't understand what the OP's question is or what point he is making. If he is just wondering if ever in the history of the Amateur National a completely amateur trained dog has won, Bon answered that affirmatively. If he's trying to show that it is a rare event, I believe that is true, and I have great respect for those amateurs such as Howard, Chris and Bill Petrovich who train smart, hard and regularly to a very high level. I know there are probably quite a few that I haven't mentions, I just know those guys off the top of my head as they are western dogs that I occasionally run against.

    The reality of our sport is that in order to succeed, not only do you and your dog need to beat every other well trained super dog, you also need to consistently perform well on the very hard marking test and blinds that judges set up on a regular basis. The time commitment, resources and sacrifices necessary to do this are incredible. Some people have the dog, training knowledge and land to do this all by themselves, some are even able to do it while working a regular job, but most need professional help. For those that really catch the bug-obsession, retirement is where experience, training knowledge, good dogs, ability to travel, time and money all coincide to perhaps allow a 100% amateur success.

    John
    I think all of us who play these dog games need "professional" help!
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  2. #62
    Senior Member Howard N's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brad Turner View Post
    I think all of us who play these dog games need "professional" help!
    So true, so true.
    Howard Niemi

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  3. #63
    Senior Member Purpledawg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jollydog View Post
    If you want to nominate an individual to the Retriever Hall of Fame you can do so by googling Retriever News Hall of Fame ballot - you can fill it out and send in. I'm afraid many are under the impression Ray Goodrich has been voted in and this is NOT the case. Please make a difference and fill out a ballot. I like many was unaware who he was. When I asked Judy Aycock about him she gave me permission to quote her and said "it is a travesty he is not in the hall of fame."
    Read Lanse's post for all the reasons why and I am sure there are even more. Find the ballot and nominate!!!
    Mr. Goodrich is indeed wonderful person and has contributed so much to the game. I first met him at a trial just a few years ago and was taken back because he thanked me for my gunning that day and we sat and talked, ( I listened ) as he told about his beginning in the sport. It would be a travesty indeed if he doesn't receive his placement in the RHOF in his lifetime. Ray I believe is more than 91 yrs old.

  4. #64
    Senior Member JS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperFamily View Post
    Lauren Hays and Slider would qualify as a "true amateur" and has won numerous Opens against the pros as well as qualifying for (and making it to the last day of) the last two National Ams and the last National Open. They're also qualified for this year's National Open.
    Slider is an awesome talented dog and Lauren Hays does a great job communicating with him. Not taking anything away from that team at all but make no mistake, she gets extensive help and tutoring from one of the best pros around. I'm sure she would acknowledge that. Nothing wrong with that. It's the smart thing to do.

    This is what we're talking about. When you have the opportunity to run the pro's setups ... in fact, be there to watch and ask questions when they are setting it up... that is professional help.

    When you have the opportunity to sit in the field throwing birds for 20 dogs and watch what they do ... that is professional help.

    When you get to know the dog's individual personalities and see how the pro handles each different dog accordingly as they run, that is professional help.

    When you are shagging dogs off the truck and watch the pro from the line ... the individual touch for each particular dog ... that is professional help.

    When it's your turn to run and the pro standing behind you says,"why in the hell did you do THAT?" ... that is professional help.

    That is the help that most serious amateurs seek out. And even though, in many cases, no pro has ever dropped his hand over the dog at the mat, it is certainly not accurate to say their dog is "completely amateur trained without the help of a pro".

    There are some, but very few.

    JS
    Last edited by JS; 06-23-2013 at 08:40 PM.
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  5. #65
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    As I posted previously this completely amateur trained dog amuses me. Usually the question arrises from those who are not familiar with the "field trial culture" and as JS pointed out what's the difference between having a pro put a hand in front of a dog or on a daily basis throwing for the pro, then running your own dog, done quite often. I train with a group of all amateurs and we struggle weekly to compete in the all age game. We have had a smattering of FC and/or AFCs over the years in our various groups. Most have not got the 5 win plus two points to qualify on a yearly basis. We have in the group those just trying to get the necessary points to get a title. I have not used a pro since the mid 1990s and it probably shows although we have had "completely amateur" trained FC and/or AFCs among us in the past ten years.
    Among the group are working stiffs and retired folks. We have had our share of Derby List dogs and young QAA along with plenty of Master Hunters, non professionally trained. To just qualify for the big dance is a major accomplishment in itself. To be a finalist with the talent out there is a greater then major accomplishment. I think anyone who puts a AFC on a dog or qualifies it for the National Amat. , whoever trains the dog should be commended. This field trial game of today ain't your daddy's game, use the resources you have, ask yourself are you having fun? The rest just don't matter!
    Earl Dillow

  6. #66
    Senior Member huntinman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Criquetpas View Post
    As I posted previously this completely amateur trained dog amuses me. Usually the question arrises from those who are not familiar with the "field trial culture" and as JS pointed out what's the difference between having a pro put a hand in front of a dog or on a daily basis throwing for the pro, then running your own dog, done quite often. I train with a group of all amateurs and we struggle weekly to compete in the all age game. We have had a smattering of FC and/or AFCs over the years in our various groups. Most have not got the 5 win plus two points to qualify on a yearly basis. We have in the group those just trying to get the necessary points to get a title. I have not used a pro since the mid 1990s and it probably shows although we have had "completely amateur" trained FC and/or AFCs among us in the past ten years.
    Among the group are working stiffs and retired folks. We have had our share of Derby List dogs and young QAA along with plenty of Master Hunters, non professionally trained. To just qualify for the big dance is a major accomplishment in itself. To be a finalist with the talent out there is a greater then major accomplishment. I think anyone who puts a AFC on a dog or qualifies it for the National Amat. , whoever trains the dog should be commended. This field trial game of today ain't your daddy's game, use the resources you have, ask yourself are you having fun? The rest just don't matter!
    Amen, well said.
    Bill Davis

  7. #67
    Senior Member HiRollerlabs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Criquetpas View Post
    This field trial game of today ain't your daddy's game, use the resources you have, ask yourself are you having fun? The rest just don't matter!
    Well said. IMO there are very few people who have completely amateur-trained dogs now and never train with or use a pro. Many of the people at this year's Amateur National were in a pro group for prenational training. Most of the people/handlers have also attended a pro seminar, and some have attended seminars annually to become better handlers. The tests are so much more difficult and the concepts (i.e., put down marks and pull off to run a blind) are difficult to train. It takes expertise to "train" these dogs to do the tricky stuff without using too much pressure. And, we expect the dogs to run a couple of miles on the super long marks. Who has the kind of grounds for this type of training--mostly the pros. Can anyone name someone besides Lee Jolley who doesn't use a pro--and I mean completely amateur-trained from puppy to AA stake dog AND HAS REGULAR SUCCESS WITH A COLORED RIBBON? Examples of using a pro: the dog that won the Amateur in one of the last trials before the break trained with a pro for 2-3 weeks prior, and so did the Amateur/dog that won the Open. I am not taking anything away from either of these excellent amateur trainers/handlers. They did a great job at those trials.
    Last edited by HiRollerlabs; 06-24-2013 at 11:49 AM. Reason: grammar
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  8. #68
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    I judged the limited open on the National Grounds 2013 about a month before the National Amat. How on Earth can anyone duplicate those grounds! Even Used "Laura's stick pond " as it iscalled for our last series water marks. Several very prominent pros asked me if I had ever trained on grounds such as this property. I said no and they said neither had they! Forget about if a Pro trains your dog, what about using National caliber ground to train on? In your Daddy's field trial National era Bong Recreational grounds were the Benchmark for national caliber grounds. I was there when River Oaks Rascal won the National Amateur in I think 1977 and two more were held before then. Now Bong is a nice place and I train there about once a week. It is excellent Hunt Test grounds but, it is not National Field Trial caliber by any stretch of the imagination!
    Earl Dillow

  9. #69
    Senior Member BonMallari's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Criquetpas View Post
    I judged the limited open on the National Grounds 2013 about a month before the National Amat. How on Earth can anyone duplicate those grounds! Even Used "Laura's stick pond " as it iscalled for our last series water marks. Several very prominent pros asked me if I had ever trained on grounds such as this property. I said no and they said neither had they! Forget about if a Pro trains your dog, what about using National caliber ground to train on? In your Daddy's field trial National era Bong Recreational grounds were the Benchmark for national caliber grounds. I was there when River Oaks Rascal won the National Amateur in I think 1977 and two more were held before then. Now Bong is a nice place and I train there about once a week. It is excellent Hunt Test grounds but, it is not National Field Trial caliber by any stretch of the imagination!
    Earl : did you ever see the field trial grounds in Jackson Hole Wyoming held there in 1975, those were pretty special too
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    Quote Originally Posted by BonMallari View Post
    Earl : did you ever see the field trial grounds in Jackson Hole Wyoming held there in 1975, those were pretty special too
    No I haven't other then looking at old RFTN. Outside of St Louis have never ventured farther west then there, I probably have missed a lot! Everything else West has been in a plane.
    Earl Dillow

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