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Thread: Aggression during FF

  1. #21
    Senior Member Golden Boy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sharon Potter View Post
    I completely disagree. This is not about a battle between the owner and the dog or showing the dog who's boss, it is about the dog learning to understand training pressure, and it doesn't matter who applies it. What matters is the dog learning to understand it....and if the owner isn't experienced or comfortable enough to work the dog through it safely, going to a pro is a smart move.
    At this point it is a battle between the dog and owner. Had the dog went to a pro before the aggression started, I'd say you were correct. But now the dog knows that if it shows aggression it can escape pressure. So this is what will happen. They'll send the dog to the pro, the pro will train the dog and send it home. The dog will do fine in training. Until it's put into another pressure situation and then the aggression will come out again to escape the pressure. Because the dog knows how to escape pressure from this person, by not complying to the command but by setting dominates over the owner. Because the dog feels it's higher in the picking order of the pack(house).
    Last edited by Golden Boy; 06-19-2013 at 12:15 PM.
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  2. #22
    Senior Member Gun_Dog2002's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sharon Potter View Post
    I completely disagree. This is not about a battle between the owner and the dog or showing the dog who's boss, it is about the dog learning to understand training pressure, and it doesn't matter who applies it. What matters is the dog learning to understand it....and if the owner isn't experienced or comfortable enough to work the dog through it safely, going to a pro is a smart move.
    I agree with Sharon. After FF hundreds of dogs there could a long list of reasons for this behavior. There is no battle to be won with a dog, that thinking is poisonous.

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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sharon Potter View Post
    I completely disagree. This is not about a battle between the owner and the dog or showing the dog who's boss, it is about the dog learning to understand training pressure, and it doesn't matter who applies it. What matters is the dog learning to understand it....and if the owner isn't experienced or comfortable enough to work the dog through it safely, going to a pro is a smart move.
    Just pitched a tent in your camp Sharon Potter.

    There's no score to settle, and it's not about a battle of wills.
    It's Pressure Conditioning.

    Believe the possibilty for someone not so comfortable with the task to use more pressure than neccessary with an aggressive dog would be higher than with a non-aggressive dog. (Could exacerbate the problem.)

    What happens in FF' will be there for the rest of the dogs' retrieving life-
    Have it done right.
    And am fairly confident that if the dog "believes" there's any score to settle when he gets back, that when he's properly CC'd, his mind should become---a little clearer on the thot
    Last edited by Swampbilly; 06-19-2013 at 12:20 PM.
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  4. #24
    Senior Member Sharon Potter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Boy View Post
    At this point it is a battle between the dog and owner. Had the dog went to a pro before the aggression started, I'd say you were correct. But now the dog knows that if it shows aggression it can escape pressure. So this is what will happen. They'll send the dog to the pro, the pro will train the dog and send it home. The dog will do fine in training. Until it's put into another pressure situation and then the aggression will come out again to escape the pressure. Because the dog knows how to escape pressure from this person, by not complying to the command but by setting dominates over the owner. Because the dog feels it's higher in the picking order of the pack(house).
    I still disagree. Once the dog has been worked through the situation to the point where the owner can step in and learn, there is no reason the dog can't be successful...as long as the owner is willing to learn how to work with the dog.

    My bet is that the dog is 1.) Not as solid on basic OB as it needs to be; 2.) either over-reacted to the ear pinch or the pressure was not correctly applied, causing the bite reaction, which 3.) Worked really well to stop future attempts at FF and is now being repeated because it worked.
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  5. #25
    Senior Member Golden Boy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sharon Potter View Post
    I still disagree. Once the dog has been worked through the situation to the point where the owner can step in and learn, there is no reason the dog can't be successful...as long as the owner is willing to learn how to work with the dog.
    My bet is that the dog is 1.) Not as solid on basic OB as it needs to be; 2.) either over-reacted to the ear pinch or the pressure was not correctly applied, causing the bite reaction, which 3.) Worked really well to stop future attempts at FF and is now being repeated because it worked.
    Your bet #1&3 are most likely correct. Lack of OB and pressure to comply during OB most likely, and the dog has learned how to escape pressure during FF by being aggressive to the trainer. I agree with both.
    But I still feel it's a battle of wills now between the dog and owner. FF is and intimate time between the dog and the trainer. This is the time that the dog learns that he's the sidekick not the hero.
    At this point the dog has learned to escape pressure from this person by being aggressive. Unless over wise taught the dog will always think it's the alpha in the relationship.

    But what do I know....
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  6. #26
    Senior Member Sharon Potter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Boy View Post
    Your bet #1&3 are most likely correct. Lack of OB and pressure to comply during OB most likely, and the dog has learned how to escape pressure during FF by being aggressive to the trainer. I agree with both.
    But I still feel it's a battle of wills now between the dog and owner. FF is and intimate time between the dog and the trainer. This is the time that the dog learns that he's the sidekick not the hero.
    At this point the dog has learned to escape pressure from this person by being aggressive. Unless over wise taught the dog will always think it's the alpha in the relationship.

    But what do I know....
    I can't begin to tell you how many of this kind of dog I've worked through FF with, and each and every one has made a successful transition back to its owner. If you'd care to make a wager....
    Sharon Potter

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  7. #27
    Senior Member Golden Boy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sharon Potter View Post
    I can't begin to tell you how many of this kind of dog I've worked through FF with, and each and every one has made a successful transition back to its owner. If you'd care to make a wager....
    I'm sure you have.......
    But when the dogs returned to the owners, I'm sure the dog still thought they were higher in the pack order when returned.
    Last edited by Golden Boy; 06-19-2013 at 01:02 PM.
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  8. #28
    Senior Member JusticeDog's Avatar
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    I had no idea a clicker could cause such an issue.

    I'm with Sharon regards-
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  9. #29
    Senior Member Sharon Potter's Avatar
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    Just to clarify a bit, since one post above was edited...
    As anyone who knows me can attest, I have never, ever claimed to be anything other than what I am...a gun dog trainer. I run the occasional hunt test with my own dogs for fun, but I'm not obsessed with chasing ribbons or titles, because I'm far too busy training gun dogs and their owners on weekends, and that's where my interest and talent is best utilized. It doesn't mean I can't train or be competitive in those venues....it just means I don't want to be. And all of that has little or nothing to do with FF, which, along with problem dogs, is my specialty. I would much rather help an owner solve an issue and then see them have success running their own dog in whatever venue they want.
    Sharon Potter

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  10. #30
    Senior Member RookieTrainer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Boy View Post
    I'm sure you have.......
    But when the dogs returned to the owners, I'm sure the dog still thought they were higher in the pack order when returned.
    Just a thought here. It seems to me the problem is the dog doesn't understand what is happening, or maybe just being a little stubborn. It could choose to do many things in response, like shut down, try to get away, squall, or bite, and this dog chose biting. It's really nothing more than one of the possible reactions to beginning FF, although it is very easy to make more of it because it has the word "bite" attached to it. I think the whole "battle of the wills" thing is highly overstated, particularly in this context.

    If the dog is worked through FF by someone who knows what they are doing, it is possible that they might still think they were higher in the pack than their owner, but that probably only lasts until about the 2d ear pinch by the owner. I had to do some ear pinching myself to convince my dog that he had to do for me as he did for the pro who FFd him, but it took about twice for him to say "Holy crap, this guy means business too!"

    JMHO, YMMV.
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