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Thread: Aggression during FF

  1. #51

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    Could be that in the past you used to much pressure on the dog. That happens way to often. I would hesitate to use the lip curl method, especially if you would like keeping all of your fingers intact. You might try starting over with a soft sell and use very little pressure as he over reacts. If the dog scares you and you back off then he is running the show. Like TY4 said the toe hitch might be suited better for you and the dog.

  2. #52
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    If I walked up to a strange dog and pinched his ear I would expect to get bit. And if he didn't bite me I would expect his owner to. The dog doesn't know he is supposed to be the example at a FF seminar. Trust before respect
    Pete
    John 5 :30
    I can of my own self do nothing ,as I hear , I judge,,and my judgement is just, because I seek not my own will,,but the will of the father which hath sent me
    John 7:16 -- Jesus answered them and said my doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
    mark 16:9 -- So then after the lord had spoken unto them,he was received up in heaven, and sat on the right hand of God
    I Tim. 2:5 --For there is one God and one mediator between God and man ,, the man Christ Jesus

  3. #53
    Senior Member Sharon Potter's Avatar
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    Pete, she went after her owner (and scared him) before I stepped in. The situation needed to be dealt with at that time, and it all worked out fine in the end. And it's not like I'd never had my hands on her before that moment...we'd had a few days worth of time by then. I do know better than to walk up to a dog that I'm a total stranger to, and pinch its ear as the first contact.
    Sharon Potter

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  4. #54
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    I know you know Sharon
    I would definitely trust you,,, that was more for new people who are all excited about training and might grab a strange dogs ear to help their buddy FF. I have witnessed this many times over the years. Someone tries to demonstrate FF on a dog they never met to help someone through the process and the dog has an unfavorable reaction. Mostly confusion. And I consider prolonged confusion somewhat abusive

    pete
    John 5 :30
    I can of my own self do nothing ,as I hear , I judge,,and my judgement is just, because I seek not my own will,,but the will of the father which hath sent me
    John 7:16 -- Jesus answered them and said my doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
    mark 16:9 -- So then after the lord had spoken unto them,he was received up in heaven, and sat on the right hand of God
    I Tim. 2:5 --For there is one God and one mediator between God and man ,, the man Christ Jesus

  5. #55
    Senior Member GG's Avatar
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    The problem of biting is a bad one. We train dogs to manipulate behavior that will favor the humans needs, if that's not possible, forget it . Every time a dog puts a foot down he is telling you something about his character, what he is thinking or what he is going to do. Reading a dog's behavior patterns and counteracting them at that exact moment is what a professional trainers do best. Pressure acceptance by a dog need to be applied by the step ladder method--move up the ladder one step at a time and the first step is obedience. Applying small doses of discipline as you move up the ladder Is what we professionals have learned over the decades that works best. The dogs that I have come across with a biting problem usually has a trainability defect in his character, which generally creates limitations on just what training level can be accomplished as an end result. I always look for some redeeming characteristic in the dog that makes such a horrendous problem worth fixing. if this dog is a field trial prospect, I would not continue the training. if a trainer can get the biting under control the dog can become a proficient hunter, if not, don't be foolish, get rid of the dog.
    GG
    NO DOG WILL PERFORM TO HIS TRAINING LEVEL UNLESS HIS HANDLER IS CAPABLE OF MAKING HIM DO SO!
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  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by GG View Post
    The problem of biting is a bad one. We train dogs to manipulate behavior that will favor the humans needs, if that's not possible, forget it . Every time a dog puts a foot down he is telling you something about his character, what he is thinking or what he is going to do. Reading a dog's behavior patterns and counteracting them at that exact moment is what a professional trainers do best. Pressure acceptance by a dog need to be applied by the step ladder method--move up the ladder one step at a time and the first step is obedience. Applying small doses of discipline as you move up the ladder Is what we professionals have learned over the decades that works best. The dogs that I have come across with a biting problem usually has a trainability defect in his character, which generally creates limitations on just what training level can be accomplished as an end result. I always look for some redeeming characteristic in the dog that makes such a horrendous problem worth fixing. if this dog is a field trial prospect, I would not continue the training. if a trainer can get the biting under control the dog can become a proficient hunter, if not, don't be foolish, get rid of the dog.
    GG
    I have to say that I disagree. Dogs have three out mechanisms that they will display in the face of pressure whether real or perceived. These are bolting, biting or lying down. The first is the most common. With all three the dog is trying to get out of pressure and virtually all dogs will present with these symptoms at least some time during their training which is why de-bolting is featured in almost all of the popular training methods. Although bolting is the most common, anyone that has trained a number of dogs for any length of time has seen the other two. In my experience the bite response is not even the hardest to overcome, lying down is. This is a problem that can be worked through and I don't believe that it should be the sole reason for washing a dog out.

  7. #57
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    I have to say that I disagree. Dogs have three out mechanisms that they will display in the face of pressure whether real or perceived. These are bolting, biting or lying down. The first is the most common. With all three the dog is trying to get out of pressure and virtually all dogs will present with these symptoms at least some time during their training which is why de-bolting is featured in almost all of the popular training methods. Although bolting is the most common, anyone that has trained a number of dogs for any length of time has seen the other two. In my experience the bite response is not even the hardest to overcome, lying down is. This is a problem that can be worked through and I don't believe that it should be the sole reason for washing a dog out.
    Laying down ? probably is avoidance,,,,,,,,,,Clamming or freezing is also an option. I agree with GG,,, well all except getting rid of the dog. They can live a full and safe life.

    I think what you are calling aggression is a dog that turns and bites and lets go due to pain inflicted. I don't consider that aggression. I consider that handler error. If one approaches this as GG suggested you will seldom have a problem.

    All of those options you mentioned are a cake walk compared to what I would consider aggression

    Pete
    Last edited by Pete; 06-22-2013 at 11:53 AM.
    John 5 :30
    I can of my own self do nothing ,as I hear , I judge,,and my judgement is just, because I seek not my own will,,but the will of the father which hath sent me
    John 7:16 -- Jesus answered them and said my doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
    mark 16:9 -- So then after the lord had spoken unto them,he was received up in heaven, and sat on the right hand of God
    I Tim. 2:5 --For there is one God and one mediator between God and man ,, the man Christ Jesus

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    Laying down ? probably is avoidance,,,,,,,,,,Clamming or freezing is also an option. I agree with GG,,, well all except getting rid of the dog. They can live a full and safe life.

    I think what you are calling aggression is a dog that turns and bites and lets go due to pain inflicted. I don't consider that aggression. I consider that handler error. If one approaches this as GG suggested you will seldom have a problem.

    All of those options you mentioned are a cake walk compared to what I would consider aggression

    Pete
    What the OP stated about their dog was not aggression. What was stated was that the dog tried to bite at them when pressure was applied. This is not avoidance and neither is lying down when pressure is applied. These are attempts at relieving pressure. As stated, bolting (the most common) is a dog creating distance between themselves and whatever is causing pressure. Biting is the same thing. The dog is trying to create distance between what is causing them pressure by trying to make you move away from him. When pressure is applied and the dog lies down he is not just avoiding, he's telling you that he would rather take a beating or die than suffer through what is happening to him. As also stated before, this can happen even with perceived pressure when the dog is confused. While I agree that most training methods focus on preventing these problems, sometimes they still arise (hence this conversation). The fact is that virtually all methods that use ear pinch recommend reaching around the back side of the dogs head to pinch the ear. It doesn't take much common sense to figure out why this is. So the dog won't bite you when you apply pressure. This is an easy thing to fix and as I also stated before, I believe that people are making a mountain out of a molehill.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Marshall View Post
    What the OP stated about their dog was not aggression. What was stated was that the dog tried to bite at them when pressure was applied. This is not avoidance and neither is lying down when pressure is applied. These are attempts at relieving pressure. As stated, bolting (the most common) is a dog creating distance between themselves and whatever is causing pressure. Biting is the same thing. The dog is trying to create distance between what is causing them pressure by trying to make you move away from him. When pressure is applied and the dog lies down he is not just avoiding, he's telling you that he would rather take a beating or die than suffer through what is happening to him. As also stated before, this can happen even with perceived pressure when the dog is confused. While I agree that most training methods focus on preventing these problems, sometimes they still arise (hence this conversation). The fact is that virtually all methods that use ear pinch recommend reaching around the back side of the dogs head to pinch the ear. It doesn't take much common sense to figure out why this is. So the dog won't bite you when you apply pressure. This is an easy thing to fix and as I also stated before, I believe that people are making a mountain out of a molehill.
    The definition of avoid is, to keep away from,evade or to prevent...I believe all the actions described are just that....an attempt to ... The laying down is just a submissive move in trying to get you to stop applying the pressure..they have no death wish....The trying to bite is just the opposite..It is an aggressive move to try to get you to stop...Both are avoidance behaviors but in opposite directions...Two different personalities in two different dogs....Steve S
    "Your dog learns as much by doing his work right,by your praise and encouragement, as he does by your displeasure and correction." DLWalters

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    Quote Originally Posted by steve schreiner View Post
    The definition of avoid is, to keep away from,evade or to prevent...I believe all the actions described are just that....an attempt to ... The laying down is just a submissive move in trying to get you to stop applying the pressure..they have no death wish....The trying to bite is just the opposite..It is an aggressive move to try to get you to stop...Both are avoidance behaviors but in opposite directions...Two different personalities in two different dogs....Steve S
    I just want to clarify a few things here. Under normal circumstances I would agree with this principle but I am referring to general training principles and dog behavior here. I don't claim to be a smart man. I didn't come up with these ideas, they are basic principles in quite a few training methods that I have read. I happen to agree with them because I have seen them all come up with different dogs in training. As a generalization, avoidance is something that can be worked through with pressure. An out mechanism is something that is caused by pressure. For example, most of us would agree that bugging and head swinging are avoidance. Some also believe that shaking, licking your hand, stopping at heel to sniff something etc. are also avoidance. This is because avoidance is just that. They are trying to hold on to some semblance of control in the situation. In other words, they are telling you that they will do what you are asking, just, when they get around to doing it. This would be like your child being told to go to bed and them saying "I want some water", "I have to brush my teeth". Pretty cut and dry and pretty easily fixed. Lying down in this case would be avoidance but could be worked through very easily. What I am referring to is totally different. I'll give an example of what I'm talking about. If you were to say "here" to a dog and he stopped on the return to sniff a cow pie and laid down to sniff it and a nick "here" fixed the problem I would classify that as avoidance. On the other hand if you were running a cold blind and the dog went out and popped, you would give nick "back". If the dog then laid down and no amount of pressure would get the dog moving, that is an out mechanism. Some have never seen it but I have and can say for a fact totally different ball games. That type of dog has to physically be moved forward because he literally will not move if you were killing him. In the same example, if you were to send the dog and he popped, got pressure and ran to the truck, you would go de-bolt and move forward. In the same situation if he was a biter, he would bite at the air, and either pop again but be much more focused or run toward the blind. As you can see by the examples, laying down in this case is definitely the hardest to fix out of the three. When you are collar conditioning or force fetching you are seeing a side of the dog that you may not have seen in the past and a good trainer will carry the feedback that the dog is giving him/her into the rest of the dogs training for a lifetime. All I'm getting at is that a message is being sent here and it is not aggression, just that the dog does not like pressure and will in all likelihood react in an adverse manner unless trained to do otherwise. In the situation that the OP talked about the solution is simple, teach the dog to bite the bumper instead of the arm, hand, etc. The dog obviously is not understanding what we try to ultimately teach which is that pressure can be turned off. This is a perfect opportunity to teach the dog that very principle and take a lot of info from the dog in return. Also, I would like to say that in my program I like to CC before getting to FF. In many cases this problem can be avoided altogether if the dog understands pressure and how to turn it off before getting to this point in training. That way they would be on lead and you could control their actions and prevent all three out mechanisms from even starting. Many don't see it that way though.

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