The RetrieverTraining.Net Forums The Retriever Academy
Total Retriever Training with Mike Lardy
Hawkeye Media Gunners Up Tritronics Outdoor Media
Page 3 of 33 FirstFirst 1234513 ... LastLast
Results 21 to 30 of 321

Thread: Zimmerman

  1. #21
    Senior Member huntinman's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Tennessee
    Posts
    7,034

    Default

    Hugh said it all in one line. Innocent until PROVEN guilty. I'll add (beyond a reasonable doubt).


    Too bad the juries these days are more like some on this forum.
    Bill Davis

  2. #22
    Senior Member HPL's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Coastal Bend of Texas
    Posts
    2,817

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BonMallari View Post
    I am not going to rush to judgement on whether Z is innocent or guilty or what his motives were

    BUT

    he and many like him are a perfect example of why some neighborhood watch groups are a bad idea when staffed by people who have little to no training in dealing with the potential criminal element and although they are entitled to own a gun, one of the first rules of carrying one is to make sure it isnt used as a weapon against you...I am no LEO, but I was always taught if you carry a gun for self defense, you better be willing to pull it if necessary and know the ramifications once you do draw one...
    You don't just have to be willing to PULL it. If you pull it and aren't prepared to "fire for effect" it's somewhat likely that someone is going to take it away and use it on you. Seems to me that the advice is "don't pull it unless you are fully prepared to use it" which really means "don't carry it unless you are sure that you are willing to shoot".
    Any doctrine that weakens personal responsibility for judgment and for action helps create the attitudes that welcome and support the totalitarian state.
    (John Dewey)

    Associate yourself with men of good quality if you esteem your own reputation; for 'tis better to be alone than in bad company.
    (George Washington)

    Gig'em Aggies!! BTCO'77HOO t.u.!!

    www.HughLieck.photoshelter.com

  3. #23
    Senior Member luvalab's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    central ohio
    Posts
    1,109

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by HPL View Post
    You don't just have to be willing to PULL it. If you pull it and aren't prepared to "fire for effect" it's somewhat likely that someone is going to take it away and use it on you. Seems to me that the advice is "don't pull it unless you are fully prepared to use it" which really means "don't carry it unless you are sure that you are willing to shoot".
    And maybe you shouldn't carry it if it is more likely to put you in a situation where you might kill someone. Unless that's what you want, expect, plan, aim... Whatever...

    I actually am willing to accept a not guilty verdict--but I am always going to think that his having a gun made him likely to be in a position where he or someone else who didn't necessarily deserve it was killed.

    Legal and not guilty does not equal wise and innocent.
    Last edited by luvalab; 06-29-2013 at 06:24 PM.
    --Greta Ode
    willing slave to the whims of
    Kerrybrooks Magical Atticus MH
    Coastalight Kiowa Ravenhawk MH

  4. #24
    Senior Member HPL's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Coastal Bend of Texas
    Posts
    2,817

    Default

    I don't have the time or inclination to watch the proceedings, but read some of yesterday's testimony and the the neighbor, the EMT fellow, the PA, and the policeman all seemed to corroborate Zimmerman't basic account of the actual fight (Zimmerman on bottom, Tray-VON pounding on him). Tray-VON's friend's testimony was NOT eyewitness as was the neighbor's. The neighbor testified (contrary to what the friend said) that it seemed to him that it was Zimmerman screaming for help and he was there actually watching. Don't forget, until Jesse Jackson et. al. got involved the police had seen the situation as self defense. The media began showing the photos of poor, gentle, LITTLE Tray-VON the choir boy and whipped the rabble into a frenzy forcing the prosecutor to press charges against the big, bad, WHITE??!! hispanic (whatever that is). If they had used current images and published Tray-VON's resume' Jesse and his posse would have had a bit more trouble and those jurors might not be facing a month or more of sequestration.
    Any doctrine that weakens personal responsibility for judgment and for action helps create the attitudes that welcome and support the totalitarian state.
    (John Dewey)

    Associate yourself with men of good quality if you esteem your own reputation; for 'tis better to be alone than in bad company.
    (George Washington)

    Gig'em Aggies!! BTCO'77HOO t.u.!!

    www.HughLieck.photoshelter.com

  5. #25
    Senior Member HPL's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Coastal Bend of Texas
    Posts
    2,817

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by luvalab View Post
    And maybe you shouldn't carry it if it is more likely to put you in a situation where you might kill someone. Unless that's what you want, expect, plan, aim... Whatever...



    Legal and not guilty does not equal wise and innocent.
    People carrying guns are, by simple logic, more likely to shoot and kill someone than are folks who go unarmed, so not really sure what your argument is there unless you are against carry permits. Wisdom is a rare commodity, even among smart, well meaning folks so I am willing to say not wise, but still innocent. Could Zimmerman have handled this better? Probably. Would Ken's suggested approach have been more good neighborly? Absolutely. Would it have prevented this? Can't say. TrayVON might have been the one spoiling for a fight. Might have had a chip on his shoulder and considered any question, no matter how apparently friendly, as an unacceptable intrusion. I've met folks like that (we probably all have). We'll never know.
    Last edited by HPL; 06-29-2013 at 06:40 PM.
    Any doctrine that weakens personal responsibility for judgment and for action helps create the attitudes that welcome and support the totalitarian state.
    (John Dewey)

    Associate yourself with men of good quality if you esteem your own reputation; for 'tis better to be alone than in bad company.
    (George Washington)

    Gig'em Aggies!! BTCO'77HOO t.u.!!

    www.HughLieck.photoshelter.com

  6. #26
    Senior Member luvalab's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    central ohio
    Posts
    1,109

    Default

    I'm saying that he seems to have been a person for whom having a gun was likely to lead to trouble. He could be guilty or not guilty under the law, but if one is going to carry a gun he or she should know himself.

    My brother and I would, on very rare occasion, when we were very little and very very bad and doing something totally unacceptable and could not be reasoned with, receive a highly ritualized and shame-inducing swat on the butt from my father.

    I also have a sister. As an adult she is more likely to be heaven-bound than I or my brother, but as a child she could be very (very very) bad and totally shameless. My father decided that he could not and would not raise a hand to her, because he was liable to lose all sense. My father wasn't immune to emotions that could put him in a bad situation, but he knew himself well enough not to bring a weapon with him to the confrontation.

    Zimmerman seems to me to be someone who--though he has a right to own a gun, as my father had a right to his hand--should not have allowed himself a loaded hand gun while "on patrol."
    --Greta Ode
    willing slave to the whims of
    Kerrybrooks Magical Atticus MH
    Coastalight Kiowa Ravenhawk MH

  7. #27
    Senior Member Gerry Clinchy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Posts
    6,892

    Default

    Zimmerman seems to me to be someone who--though he has a right to own a gun, as my father had a right to his hand--should not have allowed himself a loaded hand gun while "on patrol."
    If Zim had not been armed, and if Martin had been spoiling for a fight ... based on Martin's MMA capability, Zim might be the one who ended up dead, or critically injured, or even disabled from a severe head injury.

    Once the altercation began, there was no way for a good ending ... even if Zim had been unarmed. One could also wonder what kind of coverage the media and law enforcement would have given the event, if the tables were turned? Both of those groups don't make much of a fuss of the black-on-black crime in places like Chicago or Detroit.
    G.Clinchy@gmail.com
    "Know in your heart that all things are possible. We couldn't conceive of a miracle if none ever happened." -Libby Fudim

    ​I don't use the PM feature, so just email me direct at the address shown above.

  8. #28
    Senior Member luvalab's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    central ohio
    Posts
    1,109

    Default

    If Zimmerman had not had a gun, would he have been so bold as to pursue Martin to begin with? He clearly thought there was a strong possibility that Martin was a criminal intent on doing something criminal. What possesses someone who is not a police officer, and has contacted the police, and believes (to a point, or he wouldn't have called) the police would respond, to physically and closely follow a potential criminal in the process of a crime?

    Or would he have observed from a distance to see that the police were following through on his call?

    This discussion is interesting. Moot, as regards Zimmerman and Martin, but interesting.

    The layers of culture and psychology and circumstance may in the end have no bearing on legal guilt or innocence.
    --Greta Ode
    willing slave to the whims of
    Kerrybrooks Magical Atticus MH
    Coastalight Kiowa Ravenhawk MH

  9. #29
    Senior Member huntinman's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Tennessee
    Posts
    7,034

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by luvalab View Post
    And maybe you shouldn't carry it if it is more likely to put you in a situation where you might kill someone. Unless that's what you want, expect, plan, aim... Whatever...

    I actually am willing to accept a not guilty verdict--but I am always going to think that his having a gun made him likely to be in a position where he or someone else who didn't necessarily deserve it was killed.

    Legal and not guilty does not equal wise and innocent.
    How about not guilty and alive?
    Bill Davis

  10. #30
    Senior Member luvalab's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    central ohio
    Posts
    1,109

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by huntinman View Post
    How about not guilty and alive?
    Since I don't wish death upon Zimmerman, Not guilty and alive is better than not guilty and dead; that's still not wise and innocent.

    The whole situation is very sad. Innocent or guilty, there are a lot of "if only's" at work.
    --Greta Ode
    willing slave to the whims of
    Kerrybrooks Magical Atticus MH
    Coastalight Kiowa Ravenhawk MH

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •