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Thread: RAC: the new Layout Blind rule - what is it?

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    Senior Member helencalif's Avatar
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    Default RAC: the new Layout Blind rule - what is it?

    I think this subject needs its own topic section. At the meeting at the National Am, did they say exactly what the wording is regarding layout blinds? Are they prohibited or is it a club option to use or not use? When does this go into effect?

    Did they say how many clubs voted and what the votes were?

    Due to sparse cover on the grounds we use for one of our trials, our club needs to use layout blinds. We bought two and use them with safety in mind.

    Helen

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    Senior Member John Lash's Avatar
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    As I read it, no more layout blinds.
    John Lash

    "If you run Field Trials, you learn to swallow your disappointment quickly."

    "Field trials are not a game for good dogs. They're for great dogs with great training." E. Graham

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    At last years' National Chessie FT Specialty I helped the judges set up the final series. He used a holding blind staked into the ground at a severe angle and we were instructed to cover the blind with as many branches of sage as possible to make the blind invisible. It worked amazing! I think it was an excellent alternative idea. The kids' chairs fit under it nicely,(they were low-rider aluminum camp chairs) the cooler was out of the sun and it provided better shade than a holding blind standing up straight. It was INVISIBLE from 30 yards away.

    No holding blinds? Just stake in a regular old holding blind at a 30degree angle into the ground and put some local cover on it. Use one opposite to cover it from the backside. Throwers will have good shade, stay cool and it has a nice low profile.

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    Senior Member HarryWilliams's Avatar
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    I'd like to see the "official" tally of who voted for and who voted against. HPW
    "Sometimes we just gotta do what is right". Jerry 2006

    See ya in the field. HPW http://www.sagaciouskennel.com/

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    Senior Member JusticeDog's Avatar
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    I don't think that this option should have been taken away from the clubs. I know one of the big proponents of the rule is a midwesterner. But, there are times when a layout blind just can't be beat. I judged the open at North Texas 2013. Below is a picture of the last series where the layout blind was used.




    The long gun on the hillside was effectively hidden with the use of a layout blind. There was no place else to hide this gun. And, there was nothing unsafe about it. And, the mark got answers! No dogs were injured, no people were put in peril.

    I am very disappointed that the RAC chose to institute this rule, and feel that it needs to be reconsidered.

    P.S. Danny Farmer's "Chester" was the gunner on that long retired.
    Last edited by JusticeDog; 06-20-2013 at 10:50 PM.
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    Senior Member HarryWilliams's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by canuckkiller View Post
    I SUBMIT ... LET'S UNITE AND ASK FOR AN OFFICIAL COUNT OF HOW ALL THE CLUBS VOTED. IF IN FACT A MAJORITY OF THE VOTING CLUBS WANTED THE OPTION ... PARTICULARLY UNDER SPECIAL CIRCUMSTANCES WITH SAFTY, COMMON SENSE & EXPERIENCED JUDGES ACTING IN CASES WHERE F.T. GROUNDS/COVER IS CLEARLY SUB-PAR, THIS "JUDGING BY LEGISLATION" CAN BE REVERSED. AND SHOULD BE FORTHWITH.

    ON SUB-PAR GROUNDS, EVEN GROUNDS THAT OFFER ADEQUATE COVER, EXCESSIVE DISTANCE ON MULTIPLE MARKS IN HOT & HUMID WEATHER POSE MUCH MORE OF A THREAT TO A DOG'S WELL BEING THAN THE PRUDENT USE OF LAYOUT BLINDS ... OR THE PRACTICAL & EFFECTIVE USE OF HAVING A THROWER/GUN RETIRE IN PLACE, DISAPEAR IF YOU WILL, BEHIND A NATURAL SWALE/DEPRESSION IN THE TERRAIN, LAYING DOWN BEHIND AN EXISTING DOWNED TREE OR A LARGE STATIONARY LOG, OR NATURAL
    COVER/GRASS REPRESENTED BY AN IRREGATION BERM, ETC.

    I CALL THIS KIND OF INFUSION OF "MONDAY MORNING QUARTERBACKING" - "JUDGING BY LEGISLATION"! LET'S REMEMBER. WHEN A VOTE COMES UP TO REPLACE RAC REGIONAL MEMBERS. ELECT ... IF THE NEW IDEAS REALLY MEAN A VOTE BY REGIONAL FIELD TRIAL CLUBS & OR PARTICEPANTS ... ELECT ONLY - NOMINATE - INDIVIDUALS WHO WILL DO BOTH - SUPPORT AND PROTECT THE WELL BEING OF OUR RETRIEVERS, BUT HAVE THE EXPERIENCE,
    COMMON SENSE AND PARALLEL GOAL OF SETTING FAIR, DEMANDING TESTS THAT MEET THE LANGUAGE OF THE STANDARD: "TESTS SHOULD SIMULATE NEARLY AS POSSIBLE THE CONDITIONS MET IN AN ORDINARY DAY'S SHOOT. AND, AN ORDINARY DAY'S SHOOT IS INTERPRETED AS NATURAL HUNTING CONDITIONS".

    Bill Connor
    Posted on the Nat'l Am thread and respectfully quoted here on this thread. Harry
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    Senior Member HarryWilliams's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tim West View Post
    I think that our sport demands transparency. If the RAC votes on a rule change, then the votes should be posted in a role call vote. I agree with you, Mr. Connors.

    But...that probably won't happen, so, while the rain is holding up the action, here are some options for hiding retired guns in Oklahoma, Texas and Kansas without layout blinds.....


    A) Cut trees down and plant them to hide the guns. And, cut some more down because a dog will hunt trees in an open field and if your trees hiding guns are the only ones there, dogs will go there.

    B) Find some gopher holes out there and put up some holding blinds. You can then fool a dog by getting around the rule that you can't put holding blinds out in a field unless it's to cover a hazard. Dogs will now see multiple holding blinds, just like seeing multiple hay bales. Or, just put tests on in a field with multiple hay bales.

    c) This winter go find a butt load of tumble weeds and save them for the spring. tumble weeds will hide anything.

    d) Sit guys in beach chairs where there butts are an inch off the ground (but not on the ground) and hide them with a ghille blanket. (a dog can still run over them and they will be gosh awful hot).

    e) Rent a back hoe and put a gunner in a barrel or a one man pit blind. There are no rules about having gunners BELOW ground.

    d) Put gunners in one of those mirror blinds. Might be a problem when a dog approaches it and sees another dog running at them, but they will hide anything.

    e) Forget about retiring guns period. Just put the gun stations close enough and throw the birds in a pile. No need for retired guns.....

    Anybody got any more solutions?
    Here's another. Harry
    "Sometimes we just gotta do what is right". Jerry 2006

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    Senior Member helencalif's Avatar
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    Harry and others interested in the RAC, a few minutes ago I posted on the other RAC thread (has meetings in the topic title) what little I was able to find on the AKC website. There may be more there, but all I could find were minutes from their 2010 meeting. Could find nothing since then.

    I know very little about the RAC, but I do know the RAC (their 4 members) are the f.t. sport's representatives to AKC. It appears that any changes to AKC's f.t. regulations or any new AKC regs pass through the 4 members on the RAC.

    I don't know if the RAC members are elected by clubs or selected by the AKC. I don't know how many clubs are on their mailing list to receive ballots and there is no listing on the AKC website of clubs who receive ballots. I could find no information on the function, purpose, or operations of the RAC other than past minutes.
    Maybe the info is there and I could not find it.

    There is no doubt how important the Retriever Advisory Committee is since all proposals for changing, adding, or deleting field trial regulations passes through them.

    Helen

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    I bet Chester threw a Slooooooow Eaaaaasy bird. lol

    Quote Originally Posted by JusticeDog View Post
    I don't think that this option should have been taken away from the clubs. I know one of the big proponents of the rule is a midwesterner. But, there are times when a layout blind just can't be beat. I judged the open at North Texas 2013. Below is a picture of the last series where the layout blind was used.




    The long gun on the hillside was effectively hidden with the use of a layout blind. There was no place else to hide this gun. And, there was nothing unsafe about it. And, the mark got answers! No dogs were injured, no people were put in peril.

    I am very disappointed that the RAC chose to institute this rule, and feel that it needs to be reconsidered.

    P.S. Danny Farmer's "Chester" was the gunner on that long retired.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by helencalif View Post
    Harry and others interested in the RAC, a few minutes ago I posted on the other RAC thread (has meetings in the topic title) what little I was able to find on the AKC website. There may be more there, but all I could find were minutes from their 2010 meeting. Could find nothing since then.

    I know very little about the RAC, but I do know the RAC (their 4 members) are the f.t. sport's representatives to AKC. It appears that any changes to AKC's f.t. regulations or any new AKC regs pass through the 4 members on the RAC.

    I don't know if the RAC members are elected by clubs or selected by the AKC. I don't know how many clubs are on their mailing list to receive ballots and there is no listing on the AKC website of clubs who receive ballots. I could find no information on the function, purpose, or operations of the RAC other than past minutes.
    Maybe the info is there and I could not find it.

    There is no doubt how important the Retriever Advisory Committee is since all proposals for changing, adding, or deleting field trial regulations passes through them.

    Helen
    Actually The RAC has a Subcommittee For Rules with a chairman who may or may not be the the same person as the chairman of the RAC proper....

    Its first chairman was August Belmont IV grandson of August Belmont Jr, who was the fourth President of the AKC, and served in that capacity for 28 years.

    After August Belmont IV came Nelson Sills, the long time President of the LRC, and their delegate to the AKC who as such also knew his way around the ham bone so to speak, as did his successor "Pete" Simonds.

    Nelson and Pete's and to a similar extent "Kate's" first day at the AKC was not the day they became the chairman of the Subcommittee for rules of the RAC. Quite to the contrary they had spent years there as member club delegates and knew the ropes..........

    Even though all trial giving clubs are eligible for membership in the RAC,little is known about the actual mechanics of this membership.

    In spite of this , with the little we know, my opinion is that it would be foolhardy to vote to be represented on the RACSCFR( if we even get a vote on this aspect of it) by anyone less qualified than their predecessor and, on the surface at least ,for the next chairmanship, someone like John Russell may be a logical choice should "Kate" step down

    john
    Last edited by john fallon; 06-21-2013 at 09:26 PM.
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