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Thread: Force fetch?

  1. #11
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    It really depends on your goals for the dog. What is a finished product in your eyes? There are a lot of great hunting dogs out there that have not been force fetched so based on that, I'd say no, you don't need ot FF your dog if you just want a reliable hunting dog who is steady, will retrieve mulitple marks and will do some basic handling. All of that can be accomplished without force. Non Force training programs that come to mind would be Wildrose or Milner. There may be others.

    With that said, I want the best trained retriever possible and to me the best programs are the ones like Lardy's TRT (ad in upper right of page) which does include force fetch as the foundation for the rest of the training. If you choose to go this route, get some help from someone experienced or send the dog to a pro. You're right in thinking that you could "screw up a good thing" if it's not done properly.

  2. #12
    Senior Member Breck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by polmaise View Post
    Mike Lardy and every other successful handler/trainer for competition would agree their FF programme ! So would I.
    But,

    So why ,is there continuous relation to competition on here?....If the OP has a dog that is performing what he wants it to do and is happy with that, what's the debate?..
    Carry on retrieving ! and hunting with yer Dog.
    .
    The reason is that most folks who say their dog fetches and delivers to hand naturally don't know what they don't know. later down the road when problems arise, they are lacking the most basic of tools in their tool box to address the problems. Also, the generally accepted (published on this side of the pond) training programs all follow the same training progression lessons which build one upon the other.
    .
    Regardless of hunting campanion, hunt test or field trial competition the basic training building blocks are the same.
    Glossing over or skiping certain lessons may work for just a hunting dog but if they don't you'll be kicking youself later and likely won't make the same mistake on your next dog.
    "Darla" AFC Candlewoods Lil Smokin Tequila (2002-2013)(fondly remembered)
    "Smoke" Smokin Auggies Menace, QAA (2003- )(retired nut case, ask Rando)
    "Simba" Humewood Simba (1999-2014)(my 1st dog)

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  3. #13
    Senior Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Breck View Post
    .
    The reason is that most folks who say their dog fetches and delivers to hand naturally don't know what they don't know. later down the road when problems arise, they are lacking the most basic of tools in their tool box to address the problems. Also, the generally accepted (published on this side of the pond) training programs all follow the same training progression lessons which build one upon the other.
    .
    Regardless of hunting campanion, hunt test or field trial competition the basic training building blocks are the same.
    Glossing over or skiping certain lessons may work for just a hunting dog but if they don't you'll be kicking yourself later and likely won't make the same mistake on your next dog.
    It's kind of a shame the conversation can't end with this post because this really addresses the matter spot on. If you don't know what you're missing, you won't miss it. If you're a person who thinks FF is all about hand delivery of game, then you won't mind the absence of the rest of its considerable benefits. It's okay. It's everyone's personal choice. But you and your dog would be better served to know the rest of the story and make an informed decision.

    Evan
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    “People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.”

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  4. #14
    Senior Member polmaise's Avatar
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    'Just' has been used more than once ?
    'Just' a competition - programme trained dog would be something else on this thread?
    I appreciate and understand the complexities and differences across the seas ,and dispute neither. I however (personally) have hundreds of programmes that suit the individual dog ,rather than the one programme that all dogs should fit. It's just what has worked for me..I am sure the OP is probably not as accomplished in competition as some of the members on here? but he has the dog doing what he wants it to do? that has to be a good thing?...
    One Shooter One Spaniel One Retriever

  5. #15
    Senior Member Breck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by polmaise View Post
    'Just' has been used more than once ?
    'Just' a competition - programme trained dog would be something else on this thread?
    I appreciate and understand the complexities and differences across the seas ,and dispute neither. I however (personally) have hundreds of programmes that suit the individual dog ,rather than the one programme that all dogs should fit. It's just what has worked for me..I am sure the OP is probably not as accomplished in competition as some of the members on here? but he has the dog doing what he wants it to do? that has to be a good thing?...
    .
    Don't be a smart ass. Of course we don't blindly follow a set program for all dogs. However, the lesson progression is essentially the same except refinements, extra work, backup rehash etc is required for each individual dog.
    Geeze.
    PS
    and by the way, no offense, but you are one of those who doesn't know what they don't know. Given your location and vastly different dog expectations. While you are obviously a good dog man, I really don't believe you grasp the complexities and differences here. (Yet)
    Cheers
    Last edited by Breck; 06-25-2013 at 05:57 PM.
    "Darla" AFC Candlewoods Lil Smokin Tequila (2002-2013)(fondly remembered)
    "Smoke" Smokin Auggies Menace, QAA (2003- )(retired nut case, ask Rando)
    "Simba" Humewood Simba (1999-2014)(my 1st dog)

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    Per favore, non mi rompere i coglioni.
    Grazie




  6. #16
    Senior Member polmaise's Avatar
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    Cheers Breck
    I shall endeavour to persevere
    One Shooter One Spaniel One Retriever

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by polmaise View Post

    So why ,is there continuous relation to competition on here?....If the OP has a dog that is performing what he wants it to do and is happy with that, what's the debate?..
    Carry on retrieving ! and hunting with yer Dog.
    I agree100%! First off, each person decides what they want to do with and to their own dog and damn it they don't have to FF their dog if they are happy with their hunting buddy's performance. I like the way the OP says he "loved his dog up" when she came back that is a positive indication of how he feels about her.
    Secondly, we all know that competition is not hunting, when the going gets tough in a trial or a hunt test a dead duck flung from a winger just does not have the same excitement for the dog as sitting out in a hunting blind next to its owner who is calling in ducks and then blasting them out of the sky.... If you dispute that, come on here and tell me your dog is wild at line in a trial but so calm when hunting!

    I say Tuckerdutch feel free to give FF a pass, if you wish.
    power without lumber, raciness without weediness

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  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by polmaise View Post
    Mike Lardy and every other successful handler/trainer for competition would agree their FF programme ! So would I.
    But,

    So why ,is there continuous relation to competition on here?.
    Because there have been and still are some very popular writers who insist that the HT/FT world is something apart from the world of "The Gentleman's Gundog". Often the very 1st books and articles new and would be trainers ever read fall into that category so they feel obliged to qualify their goals by saying they have no interest in competition and just want a good gundog. It really isn't the competition side that fuels the issue.
    Bert Rodgers

  9. #19
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    Here's another way to look at the situation. Basic dog behavior. Remember one thing as a basic principle, dogs retrieve because they have a prey drive. That is why it is easier to get them to pick up something that is moving than when it's not. The thing to remember is that prey=food. So, with that being said, a lot of people believe that their dog does not have to be conditioned to do things because they have "natural talent". I agree to some extent but it will only take you so far. In the spirit of this conversation I will only use the example of a hunting dog. What do you do if the dog wants to eat the bird instead of bringing it to you? That would be the natural thing for the dog to do. You have to train the other response. The other question that should come to mind is, why not? There is a ton of information out there, you have friends that are encouraging you to do it (so I would assume they know how), help available, and there are so many benefits with very little risk or cost. IMO you are taking a bigger risk with your dog not force fetching than you ever would by giving it a shot.

  10. #20
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    What I find amusing is the thought that ft or ht is harder than a working dogs day in the field. While different for sure who is to say a day hunting is easier? Ft or ht is a very rigid, formatted experience for a dog, which is difficult in its own way, but a day afield has its own challenges. I would debate that I can take any dog, regardless of titles on a diver hunt and make them look like a complete rookie. A good solid training program including ff, may be more important for a gun dog than any venue. Food for thought

    /Paul
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