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Thread: First Golden Retriever Bench Champion

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by paul young View Post
    It is MUCH worse in Labs in my opinion. Both show AND field breeders have done the breed wrong.
    I remember about ten years ago while at a hunt test and seeing a number of gorgeous labs. Then this round-bodied jug-headed black thing came to the line. One judge fawned over that dog... and the dog could barely breathe after loping out (I did not say run) and picking up it's mark. After seeing stellar work all day long, she wanted to breed her girl to that thing. How could one want to breed for those traits? I just dont get it.

    And to lend credence to the other end of the statement... We all have seen those 40 - 45 pound mouse-faced labs that bounce off the walls of the crate and kennel acting as if high one some super accelerated drug.

    ****

    Another thread is talking about the video of a long ago field trial... and one mentioned how surprised she was at the number of goldens! Yes goldens were once big players in the sport! Unfortunately they have lost a lot of ground... Is this to poor breeding on the part of the golden group or better breeding on the part of the lab group? Good campfire discussion.
    Randy Hand
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  2. #22
    Senior Member Gerry Clinchy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klamath Hunting Gold View Post
    A thought and desire I have often had is wishing the golden could not get a CH without a significant working title. JH would not fit the bill in my opinion. Perhaps this approach would lend some credence to the Golden as a true sporting (field) dog. Perhaps the long and rather useless coats would fade away through necessity of field work. Perhaps working ability and talent would be placed a little higher on the show breeders wishes.

    Any thoughts?
    The AKC refuses to consider anything like this ... making one title dependent upon another. In the UK they have two titles: CH and SH CH. The CH title requires completing some basic working ability test. The other title is "Show Champion".

    The Lab club tried imposing a rule on its members that they could only use the CH title if they also had completed the Lab WC. Essentially, either people didn't join the LRCA or ignored the rule. The Lab WC is MUCH less demanding than the Goldens & other retriever WCs.

    AKC has also declined the request to add QAA as an after-the-name designation for retrievers. Canada does have such a designation. I'm not calling that a "title", but rather, a "designation" to point out those dogs who have reached a certain level of expertise.

    What finally stimulated some owners of primarily show dogs has been the hunt test program.

    The primary problem is that lower-level field titles are hard to evaluate if you do not see the dog perform (or at least know someone who has seen them perform, and whose opinion you trust). Some dogs (of any breed) can complete a WC or a JH and still not have the natural abilities we prefer.

    Let me also qualify that the last paragraph does NOT mean that we shouldn't place some value on a lower-level title. Some dogs who never go beyond this lower level, due to who may own them, may very well have the natural abilities many of us seek. It can help expand the working gene pool for some who favor field over show, obedience or agility.

    It also serves a secondary purpose. If someone unfamiliar with field work ventures into the field with their dogs for the first time, they will gain a better understanding of what the work involves and also will begin to gain insights into how some dogs do the work naturally, and some do not. The latter, alone, has great educational value for someone who will breed dogs.

    A side note: I am truly grateful to the works of Glenda Brown for all her hard with with the annual field write up in the Golden Retriever magazines. Education to the working merits of the breed is invaluable!
    It goes without saying that Glenda is one of Goldens' national treasures! As long as there are people like Glenda who can navigate the waters between field and show, there is hope for each group coming closer together, or at least understanding each other a little better.
    G.Clinchy@gmail.com
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  3. #23
    Senior Member Gerry Clinchy's Avatar
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    Another thread is talking about the video of a long ago field trial... and one mentioned how surprised she was at the number of goldens! Yes goldens were once big players in the sport! Unfortunately they have lost a lot of ground... Is this to poor breeding on the part of the golden group or better breeding on the part of the lab group? Good campfire discussion.
    At the beginning of US field trials I've read somewhere that Goldens were considered the superior water dog. How times have changed!

    Why the change? There are probably several reasons.

    Some years back, it was true that more people bred Labs for field work than for dog shows. That may still hold true. Someone else will have to track down the stats on that. WRT dog shows, fanciers seem to wreak much havoc with long-coated breeds ... the setters come to mind. My theory is that Goldens are too pretty for their own good Focusing on their coat and how it could be made even prettier seems to have played a role in the Golden attracting the attention of many people who valued the appearance v. purpose.

    The tolerant temperament of Labs and Goldens made them both popular as family dogs first; hunters, second. The next step was that those who DID want a working retriever did NOT usually want the higher upkeep of the Golden coat as the coat evolved into a higher-maintenance realm. Even our fieldier Goldens can be higher maintenance than a Lab. (I'm not saying "high-maintenance", but just more than a Lab with no feathering at all.)

    So, it may be just a matter of numbers: that there are more Lab breeders interested in purpose than dog shows.

    Then we can get into the fact that Golden people may be less willing to send their dogs to pro trainers than Lab people. The percentage of successful field trial dogs who are fully owner-trained is very small. If you own Goldens, you may very well have a very emotional attachment to your individual dog. This could explain the relatively large numbers of Goldens (though still outnumbered by Labs) in hunt tests.

    Those numbers decline, though, as you move to Master which is a level more difficult for the owner-trainer to do on their own. The e-collar is a valuable and sophisticated training tool. Many owner-trainers just don't have the ability to use it correctly. In today's world, very few dogs get a MH title who have been trained withoOUT the e-collar.

    So ... the differences may be a numbers game. More people who want to breed Labs for field purposes, than there are Golden breeders who do so. We can't forget that the Goldens who do get those FC and AFC titles do so by excelling over some very good Labs . That means that the Golden breeders who do focus on field traits aren't doing so badly.

    I read somewhere here on RTF, and it's worth remembering in your darkest moments: The success rate in field trials is quite low. A lot of defeats v. very few ribbons. Every time you go home without a ribbon, there are also a LOT of Labs to keep you company

    We never see how many dogs are washed out v. the number who succeed. It might be safe to guess that if many more Labs are purchased for field trials, there are also many more who don't succeed. Just a matter of numbers.

    I do NOT believe that there are fewer Goldens for the reason often cited: the tests are designed for Labs. I think that's a cop-out. Both breeds are physically capable of doing the tests. Both breeds are intelligent enough to learn the concepts (even as those concepts have evolved into greater complexity over time). Good field Goldens can compare in drive and birdiness to Labs. The key, I think, is presentation of the information. Remember, Einstein was considered a dolt in school ... until he proved himself to be a genius Bill Gates and Steve Jobs were both geniuses with computers ... so we ended up with MS-DOS and also with Apple operating systems. Great minds may not always think alike?

    I apologize for rambling thoughts ...
    G.Clinchy@gmail.com
    "Know in your heart that all things are possible. We couldn't conceive of a miracle if none ever happened." -Libby Fudim

    ​I don't use the PM feature, so just email me direct at the address shown above.

  4. #24
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    To Gerry and Randy:

    Thank you very much for your kind comments. I appreciate them greatly. They could not have come at a better moment. Glenda

  5. #25
    Senior Member Jennifer Henion's Avatar
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    Wonderful post, Gerry - thanks for writing it!

    As new as I am to field sport, I have already had a few dealings with Glenda via email. You are very appreciated Glenda for your time and effort and willingness to share your vast knowledge and resources. Not to even mention your contributions to GRCA News and the Golden gene pool.

    Jennifer

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glenda Brown View Post
    To Gerry and Randy:

    Thank you very much for your kind comments. I appreciate them greatly. They could not have come at a better moment. Glenda
    Glenda you are truly one of my heros in the game. As I was training yesterday I thought of the week I got to spend in Montana with your training group. I learned a lot! Your further support through the years has been nothing short of a blessing. I truly thank you for your personal help and the push you have given the golden through the years!
    Randy Hand
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  7. #27
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    Gerry,
    Thanks much for the wonderful response! This has been a wonderful discussion but I must leave it! I will be gone for a week of professional training (for me, not the dogs). Location reportedly has no outside connection.

    Gerry I wish to also thank you for your work with goldens, especially with the pra-prcd stuff. We have not met (yet) but likely will at a trial or test someday!

    Randy
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  8. #28
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    Change isn't always a bad thing.
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    also UCH HR UUD UJJ URO1 UHIT
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  9. #29
    Senior Member hotel4dogs's Avatar
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    what he said, times 10. Glenda is simply the BEST.

    Quote Originally Posted by Klamath Hunting Gold View Post
    Glenda you are truly one of my heros in the game..... Your further support through the years has been nothing short of a blessing. I truly thank you for your personal help and the push you have given the golden through the years!

    Barb Gibson
    with
    CH Rosewood Little Giant UDX VER RA MHU SH MXP MJP XFP T2BP DJ VCX WCX CCA CGC FFX-OG
    also UCH HR UUD UJJ URO1 UHIT
    (golden retriever) born 3-10-07
    a.k.a. "Tito", "The Tito Monster"
    www.GoTeamTito.com

  10. #30
    Senior Member Erik Nilsson's Avatar
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    All good info! Gerry Im going to send you an email re a few things
    Erik
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    HR UH Nilsson's on a wing n a prayer SH WCX

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