The RetrieverTraining.Net Forums The Retriever Academy
Total Retriever Training with Mike Lardy
Hawkeye Media Gunners Up Tritronics Outdoor Media
Page 7 of 11 FirstFirst ... 56789 ... LastLast
Results 61 to 70 of 106

Thread: First Golden Retriever Bench Champion

  1. #61
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Boise, ID
    Posts
    168

    Default

    Good discussion and kudos to those that are at least taking 'baby steps' (and Glenda - you do SO much for the Goldens!). As I have Chessies my perspective is a bit different - keep taking those baby steps! While I don't watch real closely, it does seem to me that there are more moderate Goldens being put up in the ring. I actually saw a group photo of several of the Goldens that won at last Specialty - while you can only tell so much from one photo I thought several looked quite moderate. From my own experience, there ARE conformation judges that DO appreciate a sporting breed in working condition. But those judges MUST be given something to choose from! I think the key is to join forces and get several NICE moderate / field type Goldens in the ring together, under the right judges. Yes it takes some coordination and it won't always be effective. But it is a place to start. I actually think the Goldens can see another Dual someday...

  2. #62

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Sue Kiefer View Post
    My opinion : just let it go...................
    Sorry I just don't see all your efforts making any difference.
    I would love to be proved wrong.
    Sue
    Sue,

    Iíve never let anyone telling me my efforts may not make a difference stop me from working on a worthwhile project. The driving force from the beginning of this project, for me, has been for the betterment of this breed that I love dearly.

    This event at the National is a small step. But change never happens without those small steps being made.

    The shame, I think, is in not trying.
    Ann
    Dallas

    "Sawyer" - Merichase Tails of Mark Twain
    "Colt" - C-R Gemini's High Flying Cowboy

  3. #63
    Senior Member PalouseDogs's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Pullman, WA
    Posts
    288

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Sue Kiefer View Post
    I think that it is awesome that both the Conformation judges are willing to entertain the idea of standing(sitting)in a field watching the trial and vice versa but...........I don't need validation that my "field dogs live up to the "breed's standards".
    ........
    Sorry I just don't see all your efforts making any difference.
    I would love to be proved wrong.
    Sue
    I'm afraid I agree with Sue, although possibly for different reasons.

    Even if there was a good understanding of which conformation was best for a particular breed (and I would argue that most of the conformation rationale like what you see in a book like Dog Steps is largely based on fantasy), conformation is only the external appearance. For the breeds that have a purpose, other than being an art object, there are too many characteristics that cannot even begin to be evaluated by trotting around a ring. It would be as if a building inspector were only allowed to evaluate a building by standing outside the building and maybe by touching the outer walls. Sure, the inspector could tell whether the walls were perpindicular, but he wouldn't be able to tell whether the plumbing or the elevator worked or whether the buildling had a chance of surviving an earthquake. All he could evaluate would be the veneer.

    No matter what the dog looks like in the ring, no conformation judge can tell whether the dog can see a bird fall 100 or 400 yards away or whether the dog can remember where 3 birds have dropped. In the most recent issue of Golden Retriever News (or whatever the GRCA pub is called), there are several pages of discussion about the proper Golden tail. How it should not extend beyond the hocks. How it should be perfectly straight. When you go to a hunt test and watch the show line goldens whining as they run along the shore and try to figure out how to get the bird without getting wet, you kind of wonder whether the standard should be more concernced with whether the dog actually likes to swim.
    Kelly Cassidy (person)

    HR Maple Cassidy CDX JH RE (golden retriever)
    Alder Cassidy CDX RE (standard poodle chipmunk chaser)
    plus whacked-out weird Burka (elderly mix-breed rescue girl)

  4. #64
    Senior Member hotel4dogs's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    SW of Chicago, IL
    Posts
    2,393

    Default

    This is an intelligent and well thought out post, from someone who clearly sees what is going on in the Golden conformation ring.
    My boy is very moderate in every way. He's 23-1/2 inches tall and weighs 67 pounds, and doesn't have a big, dripping coat nor clunky bones. Substantial, yes, but not coarse nor clunky. He finished quickly with 3 big major wins.
    I showed him only at big shows with lots of entries, where the judges were, in fact, "golden people". Most were breeder judges. When he only needed 1 point to finish, I did show him at several small shows. This same dog who beat 75+ other goldens at a specialty, and got back to back 4 point major wins in one weekend couldn't beat 3 other dogs to get the last point. I just couldn't understand it. Then I was told by a very well known handler to go back to showing him only at big shows because at the smaller shows the judges don't have a clue what a golden should look like, and will just put up the flashiest one there with the most coat. They don't care if he moves like a hippo or is tripping over his coat, as long as he looks flashy running around the ring.
    So I entered him in another very large show, and sure enough he won, and finished his CH.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amy Gooch View Post
    I applaud the efforts of Glenda and company to educate the judges at the specialty and hopefully they will take what they learn to heart. However, the weekend show judge is not a "Golden" person. They judge our breed as part of a laundry list of breeds of which they are not experts. They have more interest in making the people that hire them happy than in determining whether or not the dogs in front of them could perform the tasks for which they were developed. Judges that don't put up dogs that are popular with the show crowd don't get invited back to judge. The unfortunate thing is that the AKC's methods for adding breeds to a judge's list does little to really ensure they are educated about the breed. The other issue is that they can only judge the dogs presented to them. As long as we, as Golden people, continue to breed and present dogs that lack focus on the breed's purpose the problem is perpetuated. Since Americans tend to head toward extremes, I really don't see this changing. When I had Quarter Horses, I also struggled with the wide split in the breed. My cutting horse looked nothing like the halter horses or the race horses. All were selectively bred to win in a particular venue but cross sport competition was not very common.
    Last edited by hotel4dogs; 07-10-2013 at 04:55 PM.

    Barb Gibson
    with
    CH Rosewood Little Giant UDX VER RA MHU SH MXP MJP XFP T2BP DJ VCX WCX CCA CGC FFX-OG
    also UCH HR UUD UJJ URO1 UHIT
    (golden retriever) born 3-10-07
    a.k.a. "Tito", "The Tito Monster"
    www.GoTeamTito.com

  5. #65
    Senior Member Miriam Wade's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Vermont
    Posts
    3,483

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Gerry Clinchy View Post
    Maybe the judges' "goodie bag" should include a photo of Noranby Campfire?
    I truly think it's a wonderful idea!

    Before owning a retriever, I had Newfoundlands. The NCA's mission statement supported form follows function and breeding that supported continuity of working ability. It was not uncommon at all to have a conformation match on a Saturday followed by a Draft or Water Test on a Sunday-all with the same dogs. Nobody worried about finishing a Bench Championship prior to pursuing working events because of coat or grooming issues. The dog exhibited in the ring was/is supposed to represent the dog ready to perform the duties he was bred for.

    I was a novice. Didn't come from a family background that was involved in dog sports and didn't grow up with a dog that "did" anything. But because I bought a breed where working ability was fostered I was able to purchase a dog with it's inherent abilities at the forefront. My very first dog as an adult was fully self-trained to a CH, as well as water and draft titles. There were no Newfy clubs where I lived at the time and so I trained 100% alone. Still, because of good breeding-my dog passed her first draft and water tests.

    My point is that it's not a small thing to breed with an eye for what is the original purpose of the breed. It should be every breed's birthright and when modifying or eliminating breed characteristics for a "pretty" dog only than shame on the breeder who doesn't care enough to research and foster what their breed was bred to do.

    M
    "You can put pressure on a dog, you canít take it backÖ"

    Mitch Patterson '07

    MHR Wadin's Katie Lied CD, SH, WCX (11/25/93-1/27/07 Rest Well Kate)
    Brassfire's Brass in Pocket JH, WCX ** (4 Master passes)
    Brassfire's New England Patriot (New Pup!!!)

  6. #66
    Senior Member Gerry Clinchy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Posts
    7,089

    Default

    I went to look up the conformation judges, and one of them is Kitty Cathey. Some of you if you are old enough will remember the Pekay prefix (Kitty and Pat Klausman were partners in that prefix; and there was an article on their breeding program not too long ago in the GRCA News) which produced conformation, obedience, and ... a few dogs who also ran field trials. I found one on k9data that had **. This was the one, I think, that got them interested in running some field trials:
    http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=4919 You can still see a working package in Sherman, who came from basically show lines and a "dab" of Dual CH Ronaker's Novato Cain. I had thought that Sherman had gotten **, but that doesn't seem to be the case on k9data.

    I think it is unfair to say that ALL conformation dogs are incapable of having the innate skills needed to succeed in field trials; just as it is unfair to say that all field Goldens are ugly. As John mentioned, there are variations.

    Just this spring Marge Trowbridge's young boy Trowsnest Second Wind II won a Qual; and he was about 3-1/2 at the time. http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=393704 The only link you find to field lines in this pedigree is Bainin of Caernac***, an English import who shares some lineage with Barty, and who may be best known for producing the dam of Tangelo's Side Kick.

    I have to agree with Ann that while a particular project may look overwhelming, that is not a reason for giving up your convictions.

    Also, GRCA is not only doing this. The judges' seminar at the National is well attended, and field dogs are presented to these larger numbers of judges (and/or aspiring judges) to demonstrate the correctness that can still be found in the field Goldens. If nothing else, it can show these judges what hard, working condition is for the dog who works hard on a regular basis. It can also show correct coat, both in texture and quantity for a working dog.

    Note that we are 100 years! away from Campfire. We didn't get to where we are overnight. If we are to correct the course, it will also NOT happen quickly. It could take another 100 years. We can hope that some hearts will be won over, both among judges and breeders, and also hope that there really is an afterlife, so those of us typing here will get to know about it if it happens

    We (Lab and Golden people) are not alone in this situation. Every breed that has moved toward the top 10 of AKC breed popularity has suffered. Toy Poodles, Cockers, Irish Setters, German Shepherds, Shelties, Dobes. Border Collies & Aussies are the latest victims. The list goes on. There are always some breeders who hang onto a breed's origins to preserve the "essence" of the breed. For that everyone should be thankful because it leaves the door open to recapturing those qualities that may have otherwise been lost entirely.
    G.Clinchy@gmail.com
    "Know in your heart that all things are possible. We couldn't conceive of a miracle if none ever happened." -Libby Fudim

    ​I don't use the PM feature, so just email me direct at the address shown above.

  7. #67
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Santa Barbara, California
    Posts
    503

    Default

    Hi Kelly:

    Thanks for taking part in the discussion. In the GRNews where the article was done on The Tail" there were also articles on the 1992 Master National re the Golden Finalists; a Golden who was a Finalist in the Canadian Master National; Interviews and photos of all the Goldens that were Finalists in the 2012 Master National including a list of those that qualified for it; an article by Bill and Becky Eckett on Developing Marking; and a short article by Bill Hillmann. Not all that many years ago, you would not have seen this amount of support for field articles. In some of the older GRNews, for quite a few years running, you rarely saw articles on anything other than conformation Goldens----so, we actually have come a long way, baby!!!!

    This is what I feel Ann and others such as John mean, you have to start somewhere and we are making strides. Again, it will never be a perfect world, but if you don't make an effort to change it, you will never know what you might have accomplished. There have been some very prominent Golden judges who have had nothing but praise for seeing the field dogs featured---the photos of them working, leaping into water, athletically jumping over obstacles, the sparkle in their eyes from the joy they get from doing their job. Again, these were Golden judges who breed and compete in conformation with their own Goldens, not ones who have Goldens listed as one of the breeds they happen to judge as Barb described.

    I feel the discussions we are having here are really important, and everyone's contribution is worth reading and thinking seriously about. I know a conformation judge can't judge some of the intrinsic qualities a Golden might need for the field, but they can judge whether or not that Golden is physically built so it could stand up to a long day's hunt or wouldn't swamp a duck boat when sitting in it. But, then again, in all our retrievers, even in those that are bred specifically for field work, you have pups who never show that desire or indicate the hoped for potential anticipated when the breeding took place.

    I want to thank everyone who has participated so far, and to Gerry for her insight and well thought out comments and for getting the ball rolling. I hope all of you will continue to contribute your thoughts and suggestions.

    For the Champion Goldens that don't want to get in the water at a hunt test, maybe some tactful helpful advice re training may be beneficial---my Golden that I wanted a WC on was 4 years old and never had seen birds or water. Her sire was in the SDHF and her dam was a Champion. The first day I showed up with her at a training group, I was told later that bets were taken that I would never return or even last the day. And some of the members of that group were definitely not very supportive of Goldens. She turned out to be the birdest dog going, got a SH title (she had an OTCH and TD) but I couldn't get her MH as she would break since she was so eager for the birds and I didn't know what I was doing. She produced my first AFC/MH and was the grandmother of my FC/AFC/MH Golden. There were none of the DVDs, chat rooms, etc. or even many good books on field training (I am old!!!). A few kind souls offered some encouragement and advice, and I have never forgotten the ones who believed in her.

    Maybe if this keeps going, we can take some of the comments and mesh them together in an article----it might be fun!

    Glenda

  8. #68
    Senior Member Jennifer Henion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Far Northern California
    Posts
    1,294

    Default

    This thread has really made ponder confirmation regarding field bred dogs. In reading the breed standard and the articles in GRCA news, I have been wondering how closely to apply the standard and it's ideas to a field trial hopeful to evaluate breeding potential.

    We talk a lot about how the standard has been misapplied to the show lines and made them too heavy boned, big headed and heavy coated. But we don't talk about how to really analyze the bodies of our field dogs meant for breeding beyond health testing and titles. Obviously, we focus on breeding the winners and title holders, but are titles enough if you want to further the breed toward a standard?

    I have been hoping to breed my young female once she passes her medical tests and gets a significant field title to prove her worth. But as I look at her, I wonder about her "Golden" confirmation. I personally think she is lovely and balanced and incredibly built as an athlete, but what do I know?

    How do I trust the current breed standard and its current application to the typical golden? Is that standard going to make for a field trial winner, which is what I want? How do I judge her tail set, her ears, her length of leg and depth of chest. She is 23 inches tall, but she looks "tall" in comparison to my other show line boy who is the exact same height, because her chest isn't as deep and her build is more sleek.

    I've read interpretations of the standard that say the specimen shouldn't look reedy or setter-like. I kind of see that in my female and in most field bred females. They are built for speed and moving on a dime. How do we balance and judge the qualities called for in the standard with those necessary for winning trials or running in the pheasant field on a long, warm fall day?

    When I see the photos and drawings that go along with most discussions of the Golden standard, I see they are much bulkier than the reality of my female dog.

    I would like a real discussion and analysis about how to gauge a field line dog's confirmation for purposes of deciding whether to breed that dog. There are some past and currently living highly titled female golden field dogs that I feel are very ugly and not even close to the middle of the chart for what a golden should appear to be. And frankly, I'm a little biased regarding my own female. Maybe others would see her as too setter like.

    Where should a person start when trying to analyze their field dog's confirmation beyond field titles and absence of obvious deformities like cow hocks and bowed spine.

    My dog has white toes. What about that? For me, it's something I'm OK with if she's otherwise balanced, capable and long lived. As a field person and not a show person, do I consider the white toes only in as much as it will effect marketability, or should I weigh it heavily as a flaw for all future goldens in the line I continue?

    Coat? My female has a low maintenance flat coat with typical feathering. No way her coat will keep her warm on a long morning winter duck hunt. She will require neoprene and other measures to keep her warm in the 3rd or 5th hour.

    If breed standard is to be seriously considered for field breeders, how do we balance these physical traits and factors against raw talent and desire and winning (not that I'm there, lol)?
    Last edited by Jennifer Henion; 07-10-2013 at 11:42 PM.

  9. #69
    Senior Member hotel4dogs's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    SW of Chicago, IL
    Posts
    2,393

    Default

    Jennifer you need to find a CCA event and take her. There will be 3 "judges" there, generally people who really and truly know the Golden standard and often heavily represent the "field world".
    They will evaluate her, hands on, and give you honest feedback of which you will get a written copy. It's fascinating. They will evaluate every inch of her, from head to tail.
    There's some info. on GRCA's website, including a copy of the evaluation sheet.
    I did a CCA on Tito even though he was already a CH, because you get such intense feedback on every part of the dog and it helps me to intelligently discuss him as a breeding potential. For example, he's got a "good" front assembly. But it's not stellar, and I wouldn't consider breeding him to a bitch where they are looking to improve the front assembly. However, he's got an awesome rear assembly and a lovely head, so if that's what someone is looking to improve in their lines, we can at least talk.
    That's stuff you don't get, in writing, in the breed ring.
    One of the CCA evaluators told me, "he has a wonderful, broad back end". I told her so does his owner, but she wasn't impressed .
    Last edited by hotel4dogs; 07-11-2013 at 07:12 AM.

    Barb Gibson
    with
    CH Rosewood Little Giant UDX VER RA MHU SH MXP MJP XFP T2BP DJ VCX WCX CCA CGC FFX-OG
    also UCH HR UUD UJJ URO1 UHIT
    (golden retriever) born 3-10-07
    a.k.a. "Tito", "The Tito Monster"
    www.GoTeamTito.com

  10. #70
    Senior Member Sue Kiefer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Clintonville,Wi
    Posts
    1,840

    Default

    Gerry,
    "Sherman" the dog listed as "Pekay" was born in 1982?
    Pat used to run Hunt Tests as well. But now you'll find nothing but all show.
    Yes baby steps. But by the time you make that one baby step technology with training will have passed you by yet again and you'll offer nothing to the breed as far as hunting ability through either Hunt Tests (as they are changing/getting more difficult) or Trials. Then we are back to WC which don't show me crap about the abilities of a hunting dog.)
    Loading the breed ring with all field dogs that would be fun to watch a judge struggle with that. I'd love that. Too bad that couldn't happen every weekend somewhere. Wouldn't that be fun to read about?
    Carry on.............................
    Sue
    Never confuse activity with success.

    "Ummmmmmm Isn't a word." Judge Judy

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •