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View Poll Results: Why did the founders of HT split from FT??

Voters
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  • They wanted to replicate an actual days hunt more than FT do

    16 17.78%
  • They wanted a place where the average person could play

    24 26.67%
  • Some combination of the two

    45 50.00%
  • None of the above (please explain)

    5 5.56%
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Thread: HT founders intent???

  1. #1
    Senior Member meleagris's Avatar
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    Default HT founders intent???

    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Bill
    How ironic was it for the Wolters,Tarrents et al to break away from the trialing crowd because it "no longer represented what you'd expect to find in a normal days hunt", only to start up an organization that ignores basic physics.
    I have a question for those who have been around longer than I have. I posted this quote from Uncle Bill because it is the second time I have seen a similar quote in the last week or so. It was always my understanding that the HT founders split from FT because the "average" person could not compete against the professionally trained(or highly skilled Amateur trained) dogs in Field Trials. It was my understanding that the primary reason for the split was to create a place where everyone could play versus wanting to represent what you would expect to find in a "normal" day's hunt (I think certainly part of it but maybe not the primary reason). Since I frequently find myself being wrong on my assumptions, I'm curious what your take on it is---which is the case (or maybe/probably it is some combo of the two???)


    Thanks,

    John
    ________
    Bmw N52
    Last edited by meleagris; 04-07-2011 at 10:10 PM.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: HT founders intent???

    Quote Originally Posted by Meleagris
    Since I frequently find myself being wrong
    John
    Sorry for GDG'ing up this thread right off the bat, but how could I possibly resist this? My very own beloved honey, admitting it, right out in public???
    Everybody's a !@#$ing expert.

  3. #3
    Senior Member achiro's Avatar
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Meleagris
    None of the above (please explain)
    Someone already screwed up!

  4. #4
    Senior Member Peake's Avatar
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    Last edited by Peake; 03-25-2011 at 05:13 PM.

  5. #5
    Senior Member meleagris's Avatar
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by achiro
    Quote Originally Posted by Meleagris
    None of the above (please explain)
    Someone already screwed up!
    This person Pm'ed me.

    John
    ________
    Tits live
    Last edited by meleagris; 04-07-2011 at 10:10 PM.

  6. #6
    Guest

    Default

    I too suffer from newbie-isms. I'm basing my opinion on what I have read and heard from more experienced folks.

    I voted for a combination of both. I think that the intent was to test those traits, both natural and trained, that are useful in a hunting retriever and get away from the 'mechanical dog' syndrome.

    If HRC were to successfully duplicate (to the extent possible) an actual days hunt afield, and judge it like a hunter would (did pup bring home the chicken?), then I think we would get more participation from the average person or hunter.

    Someone that used to be involved with HRC and is no longer, explained to me that initially, folks who were hunters first and trainers second were welcome and participated at all levels (HRC). This person's opinion now is someone needs to be a trainer first and a hunter second, a distance second.

    If the intent of HTs were to provide a venue for the average 'joe hunter' (no offense H20fowl) to participate in, then I would have to say that they have fallen short. Now I know I might get flamed for that one, but for every hunter that you can name that runs HTs, I can name ten more that don't. I've been to JH and SHR stakes where 40 - 50% of the dawgs are pro-trained. Is that bad, nope. But what kind of impression does that leave with someone new?

    Should they stay with it and finish their JH or equivalent, then what? What they see is that the vast majority of MHs, and many HRCHs, are pro-trained. So, either the new person ceases to be involved or to continue must either become a trainer first and hunter second, or shell out about $4000 in training fees for a SH and even more for MH.

    I'm addicted to dawgs at this point in my life. I've tried to get other folks involved with dog games, but the scenario I described above resurfaces time and time again. What I described above is simply a testimonial of what I have seen and heard in the past two or three years, not a soapbox.

    -My Two Yen

  7. #7
    Delta Dog
    Guest

    Default Re:

    John,

    Note sure about ametuers not being able to compete in FT with pros, but I always heard that the HT came about to reward and test hunting skills. Here's a thought, when would you ever have to send a dog on a 400 yard blind while hunting???

    Seriously, I know that my shotgun does'nt reach even a fourth of that length. Maybe if you duck hunt with a 270 or a 243 you might need a dog that could make that kind of blind.( Hats off to those that can and do make these blinds everyday.)

    So, like I said before, it was my understanding that HT came around to address things like this and to simulate the actual hunting experience. Also, HT seem to be more practical for the average hunter who does'nt want or need a dog to perform the FT tasks.


    Delta Dog

  8. #8
    Senior Member AmiableLabs's Avatar
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    Default

    I am a HTer, but in the defense of FTs, I want to say a couple things for the newbies --

    -- "Mechanical Dog Syndrome" has generally disappeared with the advancement of e-collars (adjustable levels) and the advancement that comes from experience with their use (most notably the introduction of indirect pressure). Nowadays, the average FT dog is a happy, independent but responsive worker.

    -- The retrieving concepts inherent to FTs are the same concepts inherent to HTs and hunting itself. The difference is the difficulty level. FT dogs are hunting retrievers, it is just that they are trained to also perform at difficulty levels the average hunting retriever will never see in their whole lifetime (and this is what the founders of the HT movement had in mind).
    Kevin Walker

    Drive is the manifestation of Desire, and measured in Style.
    Thank you judges who score Style, you are preserving Desire!

  9. #9
    Guest

    Default

    Kevin,

    I heard the AKC HT program removed the trait of "nose" from those qualities evaluated during a HT. Do you know the reasoning behind this?

    Thanks again from a newbie,

  10. #10
    Junior Member
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    Default

    Delta Dog,

    When hunting in a blind in an Arkansas rice or bean field, three hundred yard marks or blinds are not an unusual occurrence.

    Lanier Fogg

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