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Thread: Lining Issues

  1. #1
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    Default Lining Issues

    My 15 month old pup has been stuck in transition lining for way too long. We are primarily following TRT. He knows the drills and the concepts since we have been doing them since before the snow melted in February. He has probably gone to the back pile over 1000 times since we started.

    The problem I am having is the dog decides to pretend he has forgotten all that has been taught about handling, such as; about half way into a pile of a dozen bumpers lining a pattern blind he will decide not to cue to the "line" command and will instead look at me rather than looking out into the field or respond in any way to taking a line (and this is after he has successfully taken the cue and lined the blind with good body position and focus) and he knows that bumpers remain at the pile.

    I have just completed going backwards all the way to three handed casting and then working back up through stick to pile and FTP. I believe we have successfully completed FF and have only revisited briefly because he does very well with FF, walking fetch and with a good attitude.

    After this last round of going all the way back to basics, he will still randomly do the look at me instead of take the line routine and play dumb. If I send him in this state he will immediately pop, then bark when cast, take poor casts and all the while playing like he has never done this work before. I recently used frozen ducks and it seemed to help him focus since he lined all three of them but my suspicions are that I need to fix this problem for bumpers or dokkens since he obviously prefers the ducks.

    I would like to hear if anyone has any good advice or has dealt with this problem in the past. My next step without any advice would be to only work with frozen or fresh kill birds exclusively until his performance is flawless. Sorry for the long post and if I need to post a video to help with a constructive response, I can do so.
    Erik B.

  2. #2
    Senior Member Bruce MacPherson's Avatar
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    Why in the world would you run a dog to the pile a thousand times? The dog knows where to go he just doesn't want to. So either the dog didn't undersatnd your FTP work or the dogs bored out of his freaken mind I'm betting on the latter. Get rid of the big piles, run cold blinds, good luck.
    "The longer you let a dog go in the wrong direction the more they think they are going in the right direction" Don Remien.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce MacPherson View Post
    Why in the world would you run a dog to the pile a thousand times? The dog knows where to go he just doesn't want to. So either the dog didn't undersatnd your FTP work or the dogs bored out of his freaken mind I'm betting on the latter. Get rid of the big piles, run cold blinds, good luck.
    I was not able to complete swim by due to this problem so I hunkered down and went backwards looking for holes. I agree with you that he is bored but typically jumping ahead has its issues as well. Not sure sending a dog on a cold blind, without any indication of taking a good initial line or focusing on anything except looking at me or looking anywhere but ahead is worthwhile. I experimented with some really simple cold blinds down a mowed path and even that was the same (no focus/initial line, sent anyway, popped, barked on handles, pretended he did not know how to handle, and eventually made it to the bird as I moved forward with every cast). 1000 times to the back pile over the last five months equates to approximately 47 times per week which does not seem too out of line?

    One other tidbit I will add is that if I put a bumper in his mouth at the line, he will run a pattern blind or double T almost flawlessly.
    Erik B.

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    Senior Member Bridget Bodine's Avatar
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    What # on the collar have you forced with? A dog that has been through a thorough forcing program, here, that bugs like that will get a "heel" two or three steps forward ,NICK "heel" and when he pops he would get a "back" nick "back" with enough pressure to make him think that was not a good option. Without knowing what you have done, I am not necessarily recommending that ...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bridget Bodine View Post
    What # on the collar have you forced with? A dog that has been through a thorough forcing program, here, that bugs like that will get a "heel" two or three steps forward ,NICK "heel" and when he pops he would get a "back" nick "back" with enough pressure to make him think that was not a good option. Without knowing what you have done, I am not necessarily recommending that ...
    I am using Tri-Tronics on a 2 with high nicks for most of my force work although I did go up to a 3 when I initially taught FF and FTP. What I am struggling with is the initial line focus. Do you send one of your dogs in this situation even though there is not indication of taking a line or focus? Then first re-heel for the pop and nick for heel as you move forward or are you doing this prior to ever sending the dog? Then send/re-send and back-nick-back for refusal?

    The back-nick-back on the refusals work but seem to do nothing for the lack of focus at the line. This dog is a Chessie and I get a little worried about applying more pressure to solve an issue but maybe I have never applied enough in the first place?

    I have also worked on this issue with my training mentor who even called a top pro in the area who confirmed the process and sequence that has been followed would be the same for him in this situation. We keep chalking it up to immaturity of the dog but my patience is running thin and was hoping to be running seasoned/senior tests already while doing finished work in training.
    Erik B.

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    I agree with Bruce. Today, a lot of trainers don't do any T/TT work. They just go straight to pattern blinds. One size doesn't fit all. Might be right for this pup. Time to move on IMO. Not a pro here but.............
    Courage-being scared to death but saddling up anyway. John Wayne

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    Senior Member mitty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RetrieverNation View Post
    My 15 month old pup has been stuck in transition lining for way too long. We are primarily following TRT. He knows the drills and the concepts since we have been doing them since before the snow melted in February. He has probably gone to the back pile over 1000 times since we started.

    The problem I am having is the dog decides to pretend he has forgotten all that has been taught about handling, such as; about half way into a pile of a dozen bumpers lining a pattern blind he will decide not to cue to the "line" command and will instead look at me rather than looking out into the field or respond in any way to taking a line (and this is after he has successfully taken the cue and lined the blind with good body position and focus) and he knows that bumpers remain at the pile.

    I have just completed going backwards all the way to three handed casting and then working back up through stick to pile and FTP. I believe we have successfully completed FF and have only revisited briefly because he does very well with FF, walking fetch and with a good attitude.

    After this last round of going all the way back to basics, he will still randomly do the look at me instead of take the line routine and play dumb. If I send him in this state he will immediately pop, then bark when cast, take poor casts and all the while playing like he has never done this work before. I recently used frozen ducks and it seemed to help him focus since he lined all three of them but my suspicions are that I need to fix this problem for bumpers or dokkens since he obviously prefers the ducks.

    I would like to hear if anyone has any good advice or has dealt with this problem in the past. My next step without any advice would be to only work with frozen or fresh kill birds exclusively until his performance is flawless. Sorry for the long post and if I need to post a video to help with a constructive response, I can do so.
    Quote Originally Posted by RetrieverNation View Post
    I was not able to complete swim by due to this problem so I hunkered down and went backwards looking for holes. I agree with you that he is bored but typically jumping ahead has its issues as well. Not sure sending a dog on a cold blind, without any indication of taking a good initial line or focusing on anything except looking at me or looking anywhere but ahead is worthwhile. I experimented with some really simple cold blinds down a mowed path and even that was the same (no focus/initial line, sent anyway, popped, barked on handles, pretended he did not know how to handle, and eventually made it to the bird as I moved forward with every cast). 1000 times to the back pile over the last five months equates to approximately 47 times per week which does not seem too out of line?

    One other tidbit I will add is that if I put a bumper in his mouth at the line, he will run a pattern blind or double T almost flawlessly.
    You say you are in transition. You say you are running pattern blinds. You say you are following TRT. You say you're unable to teach swim by.

    Hmmmm. It doesn't sound like you're actually following TRT.
    Renee P

  8. #8
    Senior Member Bridget Bodine's Avatar
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    DO NOT RE-HEEL for a pop! Throw your arm up , "BACK!!!" nick BACK You are telling the dog "Get your azz moving!"

    When you are standing at the line with the dog at heel and he looks everywhere but where he is supposed to , it is called bugging. When he does this, you need to create forward momentum TOWARD where you want him to go. As soon as you get a little wee bit of a look send him! I have heel, nicked all the way to the pile before. Sometimes I send whether he is looking to the pile or not . It is avoidance, if I don't look he won't send me.....
    All of this being said 95% of my force to pile and pile work is done with the dog facing me, there is no bugging then , and it does not create bugging. I will do a couple of sends from the side at the very end of pile work.

    I MIGHT , MIGHT go up on the collar, but I CANNOT say that without know the dog and the preparation....
    Last edited by Bridget Bodine; 07-09-2013 at 12:09 PM.
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    Southern Cross at Sight to Sea SH "Crosby" (by NAFC FC AFC Cody Cut a Lean Grade)
    Tealwood's Willing at Sight to Sea JH ( by CH I am Able)
    Briarglen's Running on Faith JH (by FC Fish River's Out of the Park)
    Glendair's Come Home to the Sea ( By Ch Topform's Edward MH, QAA)
    Sight To Sea's Take Aim SH (by Sight to Sea's Southern Comfort SH )Aug 23 2003-Feb 2013 Go get em , Man!

    Manager of www.DeCoverlykennels.com

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    Quote Originally Posted by mitty View Post
    You say you are in transition. You say you are running pattern blinds. You say you are following TRT. You say you're unable to teach swim by.

    Hmmmm. It doesn't sound like you're actually following TRT.
    Renee, with all due respect I think you are nit picking my post and most of the assumptions you have made are either an issue of semantics or you not really reading/understanding my post. I had a suspicion that I would get this kind of response regardless of what I wrote and how detailed I was. Thanks for your originality and thoughtfulness!
    Erik B.

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    Senior Member mitty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RetrieverNation View Post
    Renee, with all due respect I think you are nit picking my post and most of the assumptions you have made are either an issue of semantics or you not really reading/understanding my post. I had a suspicion that I would get this kind of response regardless of what I wrote and how detailed I was. Thanks for your originality and thoughtfulness!
    Probably I'm not understanding your posts. Several of the other posters are wondering what you are trying to accomplish as well.

    I'm not much of a dog trainer, so I read stuff on RTF to learn how to be better. It be nice if folks like me could understand the problem to take advantage of the solutions offered.
    Renee P

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