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Lining Issues

10K views 53 replies 21 participants last post by  truthseeker 
#1 ·
My 15 month old pup has been stuck in transition lining for way too long. We are primarily following TRT. He knows the drills and the concepts since we have been doing them since before the snow melted in February. He has probably gone to the back pile over 1000 times since we started.

The problem I am having is the dog decides to pretend he has forgotten all that has been taught about handling, such as; about half way into a pile of a dozen bumpers lining a pattern blind he will decide not to cue to the "line" command and will instead look at me rather than looking out into the field or respond in any way to taking a line (and this is after he has successfully taken the cue and lined the blind with good body position and focus) and he knows that bumpers remain at the pile.

I have just completed going backwards all the way to three handed casting and then working back up through stick to pile and FTP. I believe we have successfully completed FF and have only revisited briefly because he does very well with FF, walking fetch and with a good attitude.

After this last round of going all the way back to basics, he will still randomly do the look at me instead of take the line routine and play dumb. If I send him in this state he will immediately pop, then bark when cast, take poor casts and all the while playing like he has never done this work before. I recently used frozen ducks and it seemed to help him focus since he lined all three of them but my suspicions are that I need to fix this problem for bumpers or dokkens since he obviously prefers the ducks.

I would like to hear if anyone has any good advice or has dealt with this problem in the past. My next step without any advice would be to only work with frozen or fresh kill birds exclusively until his performance is flawless. Sorry for the long post and if I need to post a video to help with a constructive response, I can do so.
 
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#2 ·
Why in the world would you run a dog to the pile a thousand times? The dog knows where to go he just doesn't want to. So either the dog didn't undersatnd your FTP work or the dogs bored out of his freaken mind I'm betting on the latter. Get rid of the big piles, run cold blinds, good luck.
 
#3 ·
I was not able to complete swim by due to this problem so I hunkered down and went backwards looking for holes. I agree with you that he is bored but typically jumping ahead has its issues as well. Not sure sending a dog on a cold blind, without any indication of taking a good initial line or focusing on anything except looking at me or looking anywhere but ahead is worthwhile. I experimented with some really simple cold blinds down a mowed path and even that was the same (no focus/initial line, sent anyway, popped, barked on handles, pretended he did not know how to handle, and eventually made it to the bird as I moved forward with every cast). 1000 times to the back pile over the last five months equates to approximately 47 times per week which does not seem too out of line?

One other tidbit I will add is that if I put a bumper in his mouth at the line, he will run a pattern blind or double T almost flawlessly.
 
#4 ·
What # on the collar have you forced with? A dog that has been through a thorough forcing program, here, that bugs like that will get a "heel" two or three steps forward ,NICK "heel" and when he pops he would get a "back" nick "back" with enough pressure to make him think that was not a good option. Without knowing what you have done, I am not necessarily recommending that ...
 
#5 ·
What # on the collar have you forced with? A dog that has been through a thorough forcing program, here, that bugs like that will get a "heel" two or three steps forward ,NICK "heel" and when he pops he would get a "back" nick "back" with enough pressure to make him think that was not a good option. Without knowing what you have done, I am not necessarily recommending that ...
I am using Tri-Tronics on a 2 with high nicks for most of my force work although I did go up to a 3 when I initially taught FF and FTP. What I am struggling with is the initial line focus. Do you send one of your dogs in this situation even though there is not indication of taking a line or focus? Then first re-heel for the pop and nick for heel as you move forward or are you doing this prior to ever sending the dog? Then send/re-send and back-nick-back for refusal?

The back-nick-back on the refusals work but seem to do nothing for the lack of focus at the line. This dog is a Chessie and I get a little worried about applying more pressure to solve an issue but maybe I have never applied enough in the first place?

I have also worked on this issue with my training mentor who even called a top pro in the area who confirmed the process and sequence that has been followed would be the same for him in this situation. We keep chalking it up to immaturity of the dog but my patience is running thin and was hoping to be running seasoned/senior tests already while doing finished work in training.
 
#6 ·
I agree with Bruce. Today, a lot of trainers don't do any T/TT work. They just go straight to pattern blinds. One size doesn't fit all. Might be right for this pup. Time to move on IMO. Not a pro here but.............
 
#7 ·
My 15 month old pup has been stuck in transition lining for way too long. We are primarily following TRT. He knows the drills and the concepts since we have been doing them since before the snow melted in February. He has probably gone to the back pile over 1000 times since we started.

The problem I am having is the dog decides to pretend he has forgotten all that has been taught about handling, such as; about half way into a pile of a dozen bumpers lining a pattern blind he will decide not to cue to the "line" command and will instead look at me rather than looking out into the field or respond in any way to taking a line (and this is after he has successfully taken the cue and lined the blind with good body position and focus) and he knows that bumpers remain at the pile.

I have just completed going backwards all the way to three handed casting and then working back up through stick to pile and FTP. I believe we have successfully completed FF and have only revisited briefly because he does very well with FF, walking fetch and with a good attitude.

After this last round of going all the way back to basics, he will still randomly do the look at me instead of take the line routine and play dumb. If I send him in this state he will immediately pop, then bark when cast, take poor casts and all the while playing like he has never done this work before. I recently used frozen ducks and it seemed to help him focus since he lined all three of them but my suspicions are that I need to fix this problem for bumpers or dokkens since he obviously prefers the ducks.

I would like to hear if anyone has any good advice or has dealt with this problem in the past. My next step without any advice would be to only work with frozen or fresh kill birds exclusively until his performance is flawless. Sorry for the long post and if I need to post a video to help with a constructive response, I can do so.
I was not able to complete swim by due to this problem so I hunkered down and went backwards looking for holes. I agree with you that he is bored but typically jumping ahead has its issues as well. Not sure sending a dog on a cold blind, without any indication of taking a good initial line or focusing on anything except looking at me or looking anywhere but ahead is worthwhile. I experimented with some really simple cold blinds down a mowed path and even that was the same (no focus/initial line, sent anyway, popped, barked on handles, pretended he did not know how to handle, and eventually made it to the bird as I moved forward with every cast). 1000 times to the back pile over the last five months equates to approximately 47 times per week which does not seem too out of line?

One other tidbit I will add is that if I put a bumper in his mouth at the line, he will run a pattern blind or double T almost flawlessly.
You say you are in transition. You say you are running pattern blinds. You say you are following TRT. You say you're unable to teach swim by.

Hmmmm. It doesn't sound like you're actually following TRT.
 
#9 ·
Renee, with all due respect I think you are nit picking my post and most of the assumptions you have made are either an issue of semantics or you not really reading/understanding my post. I had a suspicion that I would get this kind of response regardless of what I wrote and how detailed I was. Thanks for your originality and thoughtfulness!
 
#8 · (Edited)
DO NOT RE-HEEL for a pop! Throw your arm up , "BACK!!!" nick BACK You are telling the dog "Get your azz moving!"

When you are standing at the line with the dog at heel and he looks everywhere but where he is supposed to , it is called bugging. When he does this, you need to create forward momentum TOWARD where you want him to go. As soon as you get a little wee bit of a look send him! I have heel, nicked all the way to the pile before. Sometimes I send whether he is looking to the pile or not . It is avoidance, if I don't look he won't send me.....
All of this being said 95% of my force to pile and pile work is done with the dog facing me, there is no bugging then , and it does not create bugging. I will do a couple of sends from the side at the very end of pile work.

I MIGHT , MIGHT go up on the collar, but I CANNOT say that without know the dog and the preparation....
 
#11 ·
Have you even mixed in a live shackled ducks into your drills? Sounds like the dog is bored out of his mind. I think that is a major problem with the tapes and videos. They provide lots of drills which give new trainers something to do that "feels productive" when they are training alone. You really need sort of a dog who doesn't think much to be able to do drills all day without any real motivator.
 
#14 ·
Have you even mixed in a live shackled ducks into your drills? Sounds like the dog is bored out of his mind. I think that is a major problem with the tapes and videos. They provide lots of drills which give new trainers something to do that "feels productive" when they are training alone. You really need sort of a dog who doesn't think much to be able to do drills all day without any real motivator.
Not a bad idea! If he can get through the popping and bugging, I would definitely get the hell off the T pattern and move on to Pattern blinds and walk around blinds! Really hoping the dog is getting a diet of MARKS also
 
#12 ·
Your dog is probably getting bored if you really did this 1000 times. Mix it up and do some marks. Maybe attempt short cold blinds. Swimby to me is important and I would start it for a change in this guys life. But keep in mind to balance your training out. Be consistent. JMO Good luck.
 
#15 ·
Sounds to me, and others like your dog is really bored. When I have seen similar issues START to crop up in my dogs, I know the dog is bored and more than ready to start work on cold blinds. You can go back to patterns or lining drills to work on issues as the you see fit. I've found that after colds, my dogs seem to appreciate the simplicity and it improves confidence. Attitude is everything. Not a pro, just my $.02. Good luck.
 
#16 ·
I have had the same issue with my dog not looking straight out when I line him up. He wouldn't really get buggy, he just looked left or right most of the time.
You might try setting big white bumpers in a pyramid shape with him by your side in the bottom middle. Put a tab on his collar and line him up for one of the closest bumpers, use the tab to keep him straight but don't make it a wrestling match. Then , alternate sides and send him for one after another. The.combination of using the tab and him seeing the bumpers may get him to focus straight out. I think this is called the ladder drill but not positive on that. It helped my dog and he enjoyed running it.
Hope this helps.
 
#18 · (Edited)
I had a bugging problem and didn't really realize it ( kinda). I was trying to get that rock solid 100% "locked on " look. I would fiddle fart around at the line and it was only building anxiety for her.
Now with the help of a pro figuring this out ( he had no problems lining her up) .we come to the line, I don't hurry for say, but I don't jack around either. No more " here,dead bird,no heal ,dead bird " and so on, I get her close, drop my hand and send.
She was never a popper, but if I get a bad initial line (say 30 ft) ,I recall ,resend.
This has helped her confidence of making a decision to trust me.
I believe trying to demand perfection on the line while running a lot of pattern blinds was the cause of most of our blind issues,including my frustration and her anxiety. ( bugging) . I dug a hole that I'm still filling back in 1 blind at a time, over a year later.

The above isn't necessarily advise just food for thought.

The advise Bridget gave is the same method I was taught to deal with no- goes.
 
#22 ·
So true,DEFINITELY do not look for perfect lining. If you are on pattern blinds, get a look that is somewhere close and kick him off, then handle. Alot of new handlers think that early blinds demand perfection and it is jut the opposite, allow latitude and build trust by handling him
 
#20 ·
Renee Maybe I am wrong , but assumed that he is on T, because of the "been to the back pile 1000 times" comment....If he is not on the T , and is on Patterns there is def some back up FTP work to do on the T . Pattern blinds should not be ugly, they should be building confidence.....
OP would you mind clarifying?
 
#23 ·
My use of the word "pattern" blind may have been misleading. We started pattern blinds (started teaching different legs of 3 legged with sight blinds) before we went backwards. We skipped a little ahead on land since the water was frozen or cold here until late May and that is when the swim-by was started but not completed due to the "bugging". Most of what I have been doing lately are sight blinds without a T pattern, just a back pile.

He handles very nice from the front sit and is 100% on FTP in front sit. Once at my side the bugging starts, sometimes on the first bird, sometimes after a few runs. Same goes for the water. Several commented on the marks. He is a great marker and has good memory so I have not run as many marks as I would normally run while concentrating on the handling issues, although he always gets a fun bumper at the end of the session.

Maybe a short break from handling with lots of marks will help? Will also use more live birds, fresh kills or shot fliers. Funny that when I used three frozen ducks mixed in the pile he did well focusing and taking a line, I sent him a fourth time since I had bumpers left in the pile and he decided to hunt for a duck instead of even thinking about picking up a bumper!
 
#21 ·
What do experienced people think about sight blinds to help? Get a dead bird, stand at the line with dog at heel and walk 120 yards with dog to plant blind. Walk straight back to line. Dog looks out knowing there's a bird. Say dead bird, send with hand, dog nails it. If you did about 75 of these, do you experienced people think this would build confidence in the dog to line up for blinds and blind drills?

This is what really helped my dog after having bugging and popping on beginning pattern blinds. We transitioned to blind drills this way, too. I would walk her out and set the blind, return to the line and have gunner throw mark, get mark, the send for blind. Still had to cast to blind after caving to gunner suction - but that's the point.

Using sight blinds (no bucket or marker, just walking do out to see where it's planted) was what saved me since I don't use an ecollar. She now does cold blinds with a lot of confidence and speed. But that might just be us. We are following TRT, too.

Good luck,
A fellow monkey
 
#25 ·
Erik feel free to call me , this is very hard to decipher online in bits and pieces. 570-378-3357 I am thinking that pressure , whether from the collar , or from no-ing him has created the lack of confidence. Would really like to talk about it with you.
BB
 
#27 ·
I hate to agree with Jen :p but my first thought was to try some sight blinds and see if making the destination very clear would get the dog to do the appropriate behavior. Getting it started without any collar pressure then adding it back when the destinations are clearly understood and visible to the dog.

Seems like something may have been missed in the transition from the visible pile to the invisible pattern blind?

He could be bugging for a bunch of reasons. Somewhere in there you have to find the reason in order to remove it.
 
#32 ·
This is a simple bugging/no go issue that has been created by too much drill work. Do what others have suggested and start marking the dog more frequently. You may still have a problem when you come back to the drill work but I would not try to solve it with force at first or you may create bigger problems. Obviously no-goes cannot be tolerated however as far as looking out there goes just send the dog off, blow the whistle and handle. Continue with a lot of balance in your training (good mix of marks to blinds) and you should come out smelling like a rose. Good luck.
 
#33 ·
I don't think Paul was really crticizeing the videos just pointing out a trap anyone, but especially new trainers, can fall into. What are the three stages of dog training, I know nothing, I know everything, occasionaly I get it right. I think in this case our friend is over training. If I had this dog I would be building confidence and along with that will come momentum or it may be the other way around but in any event endless drilling is really counter productive here, Show the dog something new and work it out as you go, it will probably look really ugly for awhile but that will change.
 
#34 ·
I truly believe that most of what has been said is true (Borden), but that is not an excuses for bugging off the line. I would go in a slightly different way. I would bring him back in the yard and use some in direct pressure. I would teach him to NO off piles. I would set up three piles a back pile at 40 yards and two side piles at 20 yards. I would send to each piles ( with no pressure ) Then I would line him on a pile, stick him and say NO, move to another pile and send. I would do this randomly until he is no longer bugging off the line. Then go back to the field and see how it worked. Just a thought.

Keith
 
#41 · (Edited)
This is, to my mind, counterintuitive. Seems to me it would risk making a dog that gets bored after working for a while learn to dread working at all.

Is this something you have seen? How did the dog respond, and do you have an idea of why he responded this way?
 
#40 ·
Not very sensitive but but classic. ;-)
 
#42 ·
To the OP--there might be 2 general ways to approach your dog's bugging. You've been told both, both might be "right." Both aim to get you past this and doing new stuff fast.

In my words--

One way is the heel-nick-heel or back-nick-back school--but you need to be reading your dog right and you need good timing, so maybe you can widen your training group and get some fresh eyes looking at the situation, or maybe call a pro that gives lessons. Pressure near your side has its risks.

The other is to just think, the dog knows there's a bunch of boring bumpers there and he is letting me know it's time to move on. You might be creating a hole--or you might just be saying "Alright, buddy, I know you're bored and I think you understand pressure--let's move on and find the fun."

that's the best I've got--take it for what it's worth ( :2c: )
 
#48 ·
this is what I told him on the phone, that it is a great big juggling act and to figure out if the dog is jerking him around .
 
#47 ·
I my opinion, there is three thing that can cause a dog to bug. 1) confusion 2) incorrect collar pressure 3) the bond between the handler and their dog ( No respect)

The drill I mentioned is my post will help all three.

First, by taking them out of the field and putting on something they should already know will help number 1

Second, by using the stick instead of the collar will solve number two

Third, by adding the command NO you are not trying to fix something that you have been fighting them over. Instead you will teach them something new, which should refocus the dog on task.

I have used this drill on break out training for some time. It should take only a few session to get the dog back on track.

Keith
 
#50 ·
If you are still having trouble or have questions, please call me. 318 355 7736. I'm quite familiar with the program. A slight misunderstanding may have you thinking you have a problem that isn't really there. This is hard to sort out online, but I'd be glad to discuss it with you over the phone. My gut tells me that you don't have nearly the problem you think you do.
 
#51 · (Edited)
I really appreciate all the advice and help everyone. I have a good training group and local help but I was getting suggestions to go backwards and look for holes since the dog looked confused when he was playing dumb.

After reading these replies, talking to Bridget and reflecting on this situation a little, I think I have a few shortcomings to focus on.

This dog is the most eager to please and fastest of the three I have trained. He was also so bonkers about retrieving when he was younger (backflips, barking, etc.) that I completely stopped doing marks and much fun stuff for awhile. He continued to have a bark problem on marks with any extra excitement at the line so I actually did everything possible to make marks a mundane task. I continued through the program without many marks.

When we got to FTP it was hard to actually force him to the pile other than from front sit since he was going so fast. FTP actually made him slow down a bit and I am not sure he understands the complete concept. I now wait patiently for any inkling of an opportunity (slow down/hesitation) to establish force to the pile but it may only happen once a session.

Indirect pressure is tough to time correctly due to his speed and eagerness to please. He will watch my hands, facial expressions and general body language to try and anticipate what is going to happen next. He anticipates so quickly that if I slack in the slightest, I am behind him in the correction.

He also got twice as much obedience work as I would normally do due to me trying to tame some of his craziness and the extra long winter. His line manners are now test worthy but to the detriment of his boredom.

I have lightened up on drills and added lots more enthusiasm to his successes. I heel-nick-heeled him almost all the way to the pile yesterday and have not had a no go since. I have already seen an improvement in his attitude but he still will not focus on a line. When I lined him up he may look at the line but will quickly look away to one side or another. I sent him anyway and he went like a bat out of hell each time and did the task at his typical 110% each way.

I plan on doing some shot flyers this weekend and a few cold blinds with the freshly killed birds.
 
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