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Thread: AKC Hunting Test Judges' Requirements--Seminar

  1. #21
    Senior Member Golddogs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TroyFeeken View Post
    The new apprentice requirements is a shame. A person like myself that trained and handled my own dog to a master title without a pro's hand over the dogs head in competition, I have to start at the very bottom to work my way up to judge even a senior level test. I attended my first seminar and then was informed of the uphill battle it would be to judge at a higher stake. Then the last couple years seeing what the hunt test game has morphed in to with extremely watered down tests and not agreeing with them, I decided to not pursue that route any longer. If I were able to obtain all the steps needed to judge at a higher level, my tests would be difficult and fair but it seems those judges sit at the line once and are never called again. Why spend my time being able to give back to the sport when tests are becoming easier and there are 800 dogs qualified for the Master National?
    I guess I am in the minority on the apprenticing rule. I think it good policy. I have always believed in the role of apprenticing having started in carpenty learning from those with way more time in and experience. Just because a person has passed a master test does not mean they are capable to judge one.

    There are many parts to the test and a rounded backround of Stakes chairing, working or marshaling along with several jr and sr assignments, will, IMO, make for a better Master judge.

    If I had a say, I would eliminate the requirement of needing to apprentice at each level, although I think it is a positive thing. But having judged several times at the lower levels, prior to taking on Master, is something I think will give us better judges in the long run.

    JMHO
    Never trust a dog to watch your food!

  2. #22
    Senior Member TroyFeeken's Avatar
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    Sure, require an apprenticeship at the master level but don't force me to apprentice at the JH level, judge twice, apprentice at the SH level, judge twice, then be able to apprentice at the MH level. Also, just because a person has judged numerous SH tests doesn't mean they can judge or even should apprentice at the MH level. There's a monumental jump between SH and MH.
    Cody's Gunslingin' Cosmonaut MH QAA (Shooter)

  3. #23
    Senior Member Bally's Gun Dogs's Avatar
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    I just thought of something that would make the process more user friendly. If you are qualified based on the standards to judge at a level (basically have done the seminar and passed a dog under the old rules), aprentice at that level but then go back and judge your 2 junior and 2 seniors before you judge a master. This would give a person the experience without taking 3 weekends to apprentice. Apprentcing is also as only as good as the judge apprentcing under. Some folks are great judges but not great teachers and vice versa.
    Only problem I can see would be trying to keep track eligibility, but that is whole different topic in user friendliness of akc's judges directory.
    ~Cortney Bally~

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  4. #24
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    I too as John indicated find issues with an apprentice program . I was a " Johnny come lately" in the hunt test judges circle. Just happened to be available with a long ago senior judging assigment, add a few points and the next thing after a seminar or two found myself judging a Master Hunt test. I did make a couple of trial dogs Master Hunters previously.
    Having said that had many Field Trial judging assignments from the 1980's and was a eight point major and minor stakes previously. Mentored on some exceptional field trial judges and gained a ton of experience. These judges took me by the hand, showed me bird placements, test management, time management, etc. one could neverlearnas a tag along apprentice. Also, why should one who has trained a master hunter or two, put titles on the dogs apprentice at a junior stake or even a Master stake. We are depleting our own pool of good judges. One of my training partners has finished the Master National, finished a HRC Grand titled last count five Master titled dogs and can't do an assignment because of the requirement of the seminar, he has four or five Master judging assignments already completed. He is a eight point major trial judge. It just don't make any sense!
    Last edited by Criquetpas; 07-10-2013 at 05:06 PM.
    Earl Dillow

  5. #25
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    According to the RAC, on January 1, 2014 I will no longer have the knowledge gained over the past 40+ years, from training, as an amateur, my retrievers. I have judged HT (all levels) and minor FT stakes, but I will lose that knowledge on the first day of January.
    The RAC has, once again, over thought a perceived problem.
    If the seminars are up to date, then the judges should also be "up to speed" re changes or modifications that will take place.
    I believe that Mr. Robinson has made a valid point re using FT judges.
    I was looking at the AKC rule books & regulations for the other breeds, (pointer setters and spaniels) and the rule books are much thinner, and do not have explanations and sub-explanations of the rules.
    HT judging was less stressful in the 80's.
    Now a triple or quad is required, but in fact are just 3 or 4 single marks. I have on some hunting trips had more than one bird fall from a flight, especially if there were 2 or 3 hunter in the blind. The handler and his dog had to sort it out.
    Blinds are precise lines rather than handled to the AOF and hunted up by the dog.
    It started when the RAC took "Nose" off the score sheet and hasn't gotten better.
    I guess I'll go find a friend with an MH dog that will let me run in a Master HT, otherwise my dog training knowledge will evaporate on New Years day!
    Tom MOUER

  6. #26
    Senior Member Hunt'EmUp's Avatar
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    I guess I don't really understand the point of an AKC apprentice it's just a person who sits on a bucket behind 2 judges. You can do that from the gallery, heck the gallery is very good at it . You don't setup the test, your grading doesn't count for spit, your opinion if different from your judges doesn't add anything, you don't throw birds. You just sit on your backside for a day watching but really doing little. Perhaps one can absorb knowledge through osmosis Then again I come from the HRC camp where an apprentice is a judge, you setup the entire test, grade and have to break news to handlers, all under guidance. Then at the end of the day the AA experienced judge, decides to approve you at the level or not. You got to get approved my multiple judges, several times before your actually considered qualified to do the job, but you're actually judging. You get thrown right in definitely getting real experience and learning by doing.
    "They's Just DAWGS"
    "Hunting is a skill to be learned whether you do it early or late it still needs to be learned"
    "I train dogs, Not papers"

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  7. #27
    Senior Member jacduck's Avatar
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    Earlier said "I believe that if a club pays attention and makes an effort to put a new guy with an experienced proven mentor, the junior judge is going to learn more about good judging than he would as a tag along apprentice." I am thinking that the requirement for a judges panel to have 6 points meets that idea.

    Sundown is the kind of judge all should be, willing to give more than required both financially and physically. I would rather run under him than some guy that says I have done it all so I am. No offense but that has gotten thin in almost every endeavor I have seen in my quite a few years.

    Now go to Happy and let me tell you that having traveled this country extensively a rule book of setups might work in Oregon or Washington but that same book wouldn't work in upper Minnesota or Texas or North Carolina. Or even staying on the west coast northern CA vs southern CA. I like happy people though.

    Just to add we are traveling right now to apprentice in WI just because we like the area our daughter and granddaughters live in. And we have been treated well in cheese country! So selfishly we double up and it works for us.
    Last edited by jacduck; 07-10-2013 at 07:52 PM.
    John C aka jacduck

    Do you really want to increase entries at the Junior Hunt Test level? Simply put a limit on entries and everyone will flock to JR and fight over how to get in and what to change to make it fair for all !!!!!

    "Duck hunter's minds are like concrete. All mixed up and permanently set."

  8. #28
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    I have found there are different types of apprenticeships. Some all you do is "sit on a bucket behind the judges". Others you are actively involved in everything (just like the book says you should). I have seen some apprentices not show up or show up late for set up day and still get approved. The whole apprenticeship system needs rethinking. But I guess they did that last year.
    Tom Dorroh

  9. #29
    Senior Member HiRollerlabs's Avatar
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    If a person has to apprentice at each level, what is the "total cost" to become approved to judge JH/SH/MH that you have incurred? Apprentices pay their own way--fuel, lodging, and sometimes food. At Blackhawk, the Club includes the apprentice in meals and lunches, but the apprentice pays other costs. In some areas of the country, there are quite a few hunting tests within a reasonable driving distance. In other areas of the country, there aren't very many events so anyone wanting to become approved may incur significant expense for a volunteer position. I would also like to hear thoughts to make it easier to test and attend seminars. If a person can get a real estate license online in WI, and a water-safety license online in KS, then is it possible to have AKC tests online and possibly the seminar available via Skype or some other interactive computer-assisted offering? The Performance area of the AKC doesn't generate a lot of revenue for the AKC as compared to other venues, so I can understand that the AKC cannot afford to offer the seminar all over the country whenever someone wants one. There must be some way to smooth out the process of being an approved HTest judge.
    Last edited by HiRollerlabs; 07-14-2013 at 12:16 PM.
    Bob/Ann Heise
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  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas D View Post
    I have seen some apprentices not show up or show up late for set up day and still get approved.
    Twice I've refused to sign the apprentice sheet because the apprentice failed to fulfill his responsibilities.

    When I apprenticed, I was given the job of sitting on the bucket and I said that I'd not do that if given the chance. As a result, I try to make the apprentice a member of the judging team. Apprentices don't score for the record and a couple of other things but I want them to think and perform as though they were full-fledged judges. Anything else just wastes both of our time.
    Eric

    WRC HR Lennoxlove's Run with Wolves JH, WCX ("Cheyenne") ... still so fondly remembered
    HRCh Struan's Devil's in De Tails SH, WCX ("Lucy")
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    Struan's Master of the Hunt JH, WC ("Charlie")
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