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Thread: Is It Possible For An Amateur To Compete against Pros In Hunt Tests?

  1. #101
    Senior Member badbullgator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by red devil View Post
    Just out of curiosity.... what, exactly is the attraction of a HT title you didn't earn yourself?
    For some people it is not about the title they earn, it is about time. Many folks want a great hnting dog and simply don't have the time or know how to do it themselves. These folks often send dogs to pro's and the the pro's suggest that they run HT as part of their training. Others already have a MH but want to run the MN and again time becomes a factor for many. If the "season" in Florida ends in May and you have not qualified you will have to go a long way (12 hours+) to get the qualifications you need to enter the MN. Many people can't afford to take Friday and Monday off work to travel to a test. The cost involved with that exceeds the cost of putting your dog with a pro to get the last qualifications.
    There are also some folks that are physically unable to train or handle their dogs in HT.
    I have never done this, but I know many very capable trainers who do. Guess who walks to the line with the dog at the MN?
    Views and opinions expressed herein by Badbullgator do not necessarily represent the policies or position of RTF. RTF and all of it's subsidiaries can not be held liable for the off centered humor and politically incorrect comments of the author.
    Corey Burke

  2. #102
    Senior Member Spag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by red devil View Post
    Just out of curiosity.... what, exactly is the attraction of a HT title you didn't earn yourself?
    I guess whether or not I earned it myself if probably best saved for another thread, however, the short answer is the pride in knowing you did everything you could to develop a dog's talent. I have no aspirations for myself as a world class handler...it won't/can't happen...and I don't want the dog's talent to be minimized by a bad handler. I enjoy participating to the degree that I'm capable...that pretty much relegates me to the chair. I LOVE watching the dogs and the people whom I've met sitting in my little chair.
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  3. #103
    Senior Member grnhd's Avatar
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    If you're a member of this club and your event filled up in 50 minutes with mostly pro dogs,that appears to have had a heads up that it was open for entries , how many of you would help in the event? If there is no help, how successful will this club be in the future with events? To me,you've got to let the people that run the event run their dogs above any one else. If they cant run their dogs,they'll quit,I think its that simple. JMHO.
    Last edited by grnhd; 07-13-2013 at 09:31 PM.

  4. #104
    Senior Member Ted Shih's Avatar
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    Here is something that Ed Aycock and I proposed for use in Field Trials that might be adapted to address the concerns expressed in this post

    Designated Handler/Limited Entry Open



    In the Designated Handler/Limited Entry Open (the “Stake”), entries shall be limited to 65 dogs - or a slightly higher number, if necessary, as described below.


    In the Stake, each handler shall designate in numerical order those dogs which the handler wishes to enter in the Stake. Entries 1-5 shall be guaranteed admission into the Stake - whether or not total entries equal or exceed 65 dogs.


    If, upon the close of entries, the Field Trial Secretary determines that less than 65 dogs are admitted in the Stake, those handlers who have designated more than 5 dogs for admission in the Stake shall be permitted to enter the dog the handler has previously designated as dog no. 6 into the Stake. If after all such dogs have be admitted into the Stake, the Field Trial Secretary determines that less than 65 dogs are still admitted in the Stake, those handlers who have designated more than 6 dogs for admission in the Stake shall be permitted to enter the dog the handler has previously designated as dog no. 7 into the Stake. This process shall continue until the Field Trial Secretary first determines that entries in the Stake are 65 dogs or more.


    Consider the following examples


    A. The Field Trial Secretary determines upon the close of entries, that if all handlers are permitted to run the dogs that they have designated, including 5 dogs per handler for those handlers who have designated five or more dogs, that 75 dogs would be admitted in the Stake - then the Stake would proceed with 75 dogs, and handlers with more than 5 dogs designated would not be permitted to enter any further dogs in the Stake.


    B. The same situation, only the FTS determines that total entries, when handlers are permitted to enter 5 dogs into the Stake, are 64. Because total entries are less than 65, each handler who has previously designated a sixth dog for potential admission into the stake shall be permitted to enter that sixth dog in the stake. This is true even if the admission of each sixth dog designated by handlers with more than five dogs would result in the Stake having 80 dogs entered. All handlers who had six dogs designated for entry in the Stake would be permitted to enter the dogs that the handlers had previously designated as 1-6 in the stake.


    In the event that a dog is scratched for veterinary reasons, if applicable, the handler with multiple dogs may then substitute the next designated dog for inclusion in the Stake. For example, the FTS determines that all handlers with more than 5 dogs may enter up to 7 dogs. Handler X has designated 18 for potential inclusion in the Stake. Handler X’s entry number 6 has come in season. Handler X will be permitted to enter his previously identified dog no. 8 in the trial. However, he will not be permitted to enter dog no. 9 in place of the scratched dog.
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  5. #105
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    50 min, 30 min, 15 min fill ups all happened recently. I heard of some handlers hitting the submit button, as entries flooded in, only to be turned away. Just to many entries coming into the system to get your one dog into the line-up. I personally was in a bad place geographically to get notice the events had been opened up. When I did get notice two hours later and checked - all the tests were full.

    I OVER HEATED!

    First, I started simmering at the pros (some are friends and yes people it's not their fault)

    Second, I started boiling at whomever let the cat out of the bag to the pros. The pro and amateur club is a partnership of sorts that keeps this game viable. I wasn't right to be mad here either - I think

    Third, I blew up being fellow amateur's like myself put on "these" tests. I was ready to toss nearly 10-years of friendships and helping at these events out the door. I sure the heck wasn't going to throw or launch one more duck if club members couldn't play - I will not if this sort of system continues. It makes no sense for me to volunteer to set-up, throw ducks, travel or tear down if I can't play at my own club.

    I've cooled off by now but we need to be having some constructive discussions on how to level the playing field.

    I do feel club members should have a window of opportunity before all else though...

    Robert

  6. #106
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    http://www.retrievertraining.net/for...=1#post1122985
    A system ensuring that anyone who wishes to run one dog is able to do so, before anyone gets to run multiple dogs is as close as it gets....
    With this system , unless there are 61 or more single dog entries, all those who wish to run (a) their dog in the event get to do so, before anyone gets to run more than one dog.....john
    "i guess the old saying 'those of us that think we know everything annoy those of you that does' " --bobbyb 9/13/06

    "A Good Dog is a Good Dog"

  7. #107
    Senior Member badbullgator's Avatar
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    Your club could always do the old mail in and random draw.
    Views and opinions expressed herein by Badbullgator do not necessarily represent the policies or position of RTF. RTF and all of it's subsidiaries can not be held liable for the off centered humor and politically incorrect comments of the author.
    Corey Burke

  8. #108
    Senior Member DoubleHaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grnhd View Post
    If your a member of this club and your event filled up in 50 minutes with mostly pro dogs,that appears to have had a heads up that it was open for entries , how many of you would help in the event?
    I would help, and I would imagine that the rest of the folks in my club who work events would help. In fact, I typically don't enter my dogs in our hunt tests unless we need the entries so I can concentrate on what needs to be done. The way I see it is that we put on our events primarily to raise $ for the club, so we can afford things like training days, club trials etc., and also to host other folks in the region to an event to reciprocate for their holding events for me to run.

  9. #109
    Senior Member PalouseDogs's Avatar
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    Lots of solutions, probably all have their downsides/unintended consequences. Here's another one:

    Have a Master A and a Master B stake, similar to the A/B system in Obedience or the Excellent/Master system in Agility. Master A is for dogs that do not yet have an MH. Master B is for dogs that already have an MH. In one of the tests that filled fast, I counted about 38 dogs that had MH in their name, and I would guess that many of the others also had an MH, but it hadn't been added to the Entry Express name yet.

    Could work a couple ways from there. Master A and B could be the same stakes, same judges, run together, with Master A dogs getting priority for entries or Master B could be a separate, more challenging test.

    For the Master B dogs, add another $10 or $15 or $20 to the entry fee over Master A. 60 dogs in Master B would be another $600 (or $900 or $1,200) to pay for workers or judges. (I realize that grounds and time could be a problem that can't be solved by raising the entry fees for Master B; in that case, a limit on entries would be needed.) No canceling of entries allowed in Master B, except major medical. I think, by then, you should have a fairly good idea of when your girl will come into heat and, if not, well, them's the breaks running girls.

    Another point. Apparently, the fast-closing entries are in the vicinity of the upcoming Master National. I think that problem is created by the MN being the only hunt test title above MH. Create additional titles and I think entries would increase overall and even out across the country. Similar to Agility and Obedience, you could have an MHX (ten qualifying MH runs after achieving the title), MHX2 (20 post-title qualifying runs), etc.
    Kelly Cassidy (person)

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  10. #110
    Senior Member Miriam Wade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by red devil View Post
    Just out of curiosity.... what, exactly is the attraction of a HT title you didn't earn yourself?
    Nobody trained or ran my first dog except myself. One exception when Susan Young and Jim Person ran her while I judged a different stake and it made for a funny (I thought) story. Training (despite a lot of mistakes) and running HTs was about her and I. I wouldn't have traded piling everything into the Jeep and driving down the road to the next test for anything. She always knew where we were headed and that she was going to get her birds. If I took the shotgun out the night before, she knew we were going hunting and she would sleep against the front door all night because no way was she going to be left behind. I loved and miss that dog, but am grateful for her taking me to all the places she did.

    As to your comment-a lot of dogs you see at HTs being handled by their owners had help from pros that may or may not ever be acknowledged. My current dog had his basics done later in his life at 17 months. He was with a pro for 5 months for that. He was with another pro for 2 months a couple years ago when I couldn't run or train him myself. Right now, for personal reasons, I can't train for a bit. I agonized, but decided he'd probably be happier getting some birds than sitting on the couch and going for walks. Next week he'll run a HT and I hate the fact that I won't be getting up early with him and driving to a test together, as well as the adrenaline rush you get when you go to line. The glowing pride when he gets it right and even the disappointment when sometimes you have to wonder how you should have approached things and helped him out better. You get none of that in a phone call, but I'm grateful to have someone run him who will do their absolute best to get 110% out of my dog. I'll run him in my local test at the end of the month and I can't wait to have him back.

    **As an aside-my dog goes EVERYWHERE with me. He is even allowed in one of the local stores and carries a grocery bag home when he goes. Since he's been gone I have had people I don't even know stopping me on the street constantly asking where he is. The other day I was walking down a street we often walk and some man (assuming I MUST have my dog) yelled (not common in that neighborhood) out his window, "Put that dog on a leash!".

    M
    "You can put pressure on a dog, you canít take it backÖ"

    Mitch Patterson '07

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