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Thread: E collar transition to force fetch

  1. #11
    Senior Member RookieTrainer's Avatar
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    I'll search for that thread. You are right that the momentary is shorter, and you can't exactly replicate it on continuous. I guess I thought that they might be so close as to be really indistinguishable to the dog.

    I have had problems with my dog on a slow/loopy sit, and I was taught to give him a whistle and then a continuous until his butt hit the ground. It clears him right up when he takes a notion to try it again. Have I been doing this incorrectly all this time or is this one of those "it works for that particular dog" things?

    Thanks for the response. The more I learn the more I see I have to learn.
    Last edited by RookieTrainer; 07-16-2013 at 06:35 AM.
    Steve Wyatt

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  2. #12
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    Generally speaking, Mike teaches to use continuous (one second) for cc and ff and then switches to momentary when starting FTP

    Are you saying FF is to be done with only a second bump on continuous? If a dog is only bumped 1 second with the collar during the CC of Here or FF you will run into major problems down the road. Bolting on here may be one of them. If you pinch an ear till the dog puts the object in the mouth, then why wouldn't you stimulate until the dog puts the object in the mouth.? Does the Lardy program recommend a one second pinch also?
    Pete
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  3. #13
    Senior Member Wayne Nutt's Avatar
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    Pete you have a lot more experience than me. Maybe you could discuss your questions with Mike Lardy. But that is what I do and it works for me. Remember Mike's sequence is ff with ear pinch, then walking ff with ear pinch (except I used a toe hitch with Rowdy because I couldn't bend over), then simple casting, then come back to walking ecollar fetch. And yes he does a one second burn for the force.
    Wayne Nutt
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  4. #14
    Senior Member Wayne Nutt's Avatar
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    RT, I trained a lot of dogs with a one button ecollar. Shadow was one of those plus he is a hard head. So, I switch to continous when I run him. Although, I don't hold the button down until I get compliance. I get it with a one second burn.
    Hope this helps.
    Wayne Nutt
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  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wayne Nutt View Post
    RT, I trained a lot of dogs with a one button ecollar. Shadow was one of those plus he is a hard head. So, I switch to continous when I run him. Although, I don't hold the button down until I get compliance. I get it with a one second burn.
    Hope this helps.
    It does help.

    I can get my dog to start to break down immediately on the whistle. What he will do if I let him is take 3 or 4 more strides trying to slow down, since he runs like his hair is on fire and he is sure he knows where it is. When he does this, what I call a "slow sit" necessarily turns into a loopy sit. IOW, it's not a crisp turn and down. Unless I catch him doing it and give him continuous pressure to the ground.

    I guess I analogized the "continuous until compliance" with the ear pinch in FF, where you wouldn't let go until the bumper is in their mouth and held. It made sense to me in that context.

    My pro has been working on it and it was a lot better the last time I visited, and it may be that he will be to the point when he gets back home after Labor Day that a nick will do it as a reminder of the other.
    Steve Wyatt

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    Senior Member DarrinGreene's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RookieTrainer View Post
    It does help.

    I can get my dog to start to break down immediately on the whistle. What he will do if I let him is take 3 or 4 more strides trying to slow down, since he runs like his hair is on fire and he is sure he knows where it is. When he does this, what I call a "slow sit" necessarily turns into a loopy sit. IOW, it's not a crisp turn and down. Unless I catch him doing it and give him continuous pressure to the ground.

    I guess I analogized the "continuous until compliance" with the ear pinch in FF, where you wouldn't let go until the bumper is in their mouth and held. It made sense to me in that context.

    My pro has been working on it and it was a lot better the last time I visited, and it may be that he will be to the point when he gets back home after Labor Day that a nick will do it as a reminder of the other.
    Why do you care if it's a nick or cont? You do what you have to do to re-enforce and condition the behavior to become automatic and reliable.

    You had the analogy correct Steve.
    Darrin Greene

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    Quote Originally Posted by DarrinGreene View Post
    Why do you care if it's a nick or cont? You do what you have to do to re-enforce and condition the behavior to become automatic and reliable.

    You had the analogy correct Steve.
    Quote Originally Posted by RookieTrainer View Post
    It does help.

    I can get my dog to start to break down immediately on the whistle. What he will do if I let him is take 3 or 4 more strides trying to slow down, since he runs like his hair is on fire and he is sure he knows where it is. When he does this, what I call a "slow sit" necessarily turns into a loopy sit. IOW, it's not a crisp turn and down. Unless I catch him doing it and give him continuous pressure to the ground.

    I guess I analogized the "continuous until compliance" with the ear pinch in FF, where you wouldn't let go until the bumper is in their mouth and held. It made sense to me in that context.

    My pro has been working on it and it was a lot better the last time I visited, and it may be that he will be to the point when he gets back home after Labor Day that a nick will do it as a reminder of the other.
    The only problem with continuous pressure on the sit whistle is that if done too much the dog will tend to start worrying more about getting his butt on the ground than turning around fully. When the dog is sitting sideways it is very difficult to get an accurate literal cast. This is a problem that is correctible but will always seem to come back and bite you once created.

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    [QUOTEPete you have a lot more experience than me. Maybe you could discuss your questions with Mike Lardy. But that is what I do and it works for me. Remember Mike's sequence is ff with ear pinch, then walking ff with ear pinch (except I used a toe hitch with Rowdy because I couldn't bend over), then simple casting, then come back to walking ecollar fetch. And yes he does a one second burn for the force.][/QUOTE]

    Thanks for clarifying that for me Wayne,, That is an interesting concept and application to me,,,it evokes many questions,,,,May be some day I'll be fortunate enough to attend one of Mike's seminars.

    Pete
    John 5 :30
    I can of my own self do nothing ,as I hear , I judge,,and my judgement is just, because I seek not my own will,,but the will of the father which hath sent me
    John 7:16 -- Jesus answered them and said my doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
    mark 16:9 -- So then after the lord had spoken unto them,he was received up in heaven, and sat on the right hand of God
    I Tim. 2:5 --For there is one God and one mediator between God and man ,, the man Christ Jesus

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    Senior Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Marshall View Post
    The only problem with continuous pressure on the sit whistle is that if done too much the dog will tend to start worrying more about getting his butt on the ground than turning around fully. When the dog is sitting sideways it is very difficult to get an accurate literal cast. This is a problem that is correctable but will always seem to come back and bite you once created.
    Two good points Tony. One is that continuous for sit can have affects opposite the trainer's goals. But the solution really makes a difference in terms of lasting effects. It's so popular to stop the dog, the dog sits crooked, then the handler calls the dog toward them to straighten them up, and then casts. It's a circus. Rarely is there lasting value to it, so the trainer forms the habit of this treatment on a regular basis. He needs to because it isn't a cure in most cases.

    Sorry, I don't mean to side track the thread.

    Evan
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  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Marshall View Post
    The only problem with continuous pressure on the sit whistle is that if done too much the dog will tend to start worrying more about getting his butt on the ground than turning around fully. When the dog is sitting sideways it is very difficult to get an accurate literal cast. This is a problem that is correctible but will always seem to come back and bite you once created.
    That's true, and he sometimes does end up not turning all the way around - which also tells me he understands the pressure on the sit and what i am trying to tell him. If I can get him reliably slamming on the brakes and getting his butt on the ground, I think I can fix the sideways sit. The goal is to get him reliably sitting on line and then back off on the pressure, eventually using a nick as a reminder when he tries to slip back into his old habit. Balance in all things, right?

    In any event I think I'd rather have that problem than watch him consistently get off line because he simply doesn't sit quickly enough. And in working through this problem, I have learned some valuable lessons about sit, the consistency required in the corrections, and the need to get the sit command much more solid much earlier.
    Steve Wyatt

    HR Belle's Rolling Big Rig "Jimmy"

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