The RetrieverTraining.Net Forums The Retriever Academy
Total Retriever Training with Mike Lardy
Hawkeye Media Gunners Up Tritronics Outdoor Media
Page 3 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast
Results 21 to 30 of 42

Thread: De'marquis!

  1. #21
    Senior Member helencalif's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    in the mountains at Lake Almanor, CA
    Posts
    2,006

    Default

    Zeus,

    I wish the program you described was here in California -- the land of Barbara Boxer, Nancy Pelosi, and now the San Diego mayor-pervert.

    Helen

  2. #22
    Senior Member Gerry Clinchy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Posts
    6,712

    Default

    We keep talking about what does NOT work ... and not much talking about what does work.

    Don't know whether any of you have seen the UP cable TV station. I stumbled across it the other day/night. It's a family-oriented station. One of their reality shows is Bullock Family Ranch. Didn't see enough of the show to note where the "ranch" is located or what the size of the town nearest the ranch.

    I HATE reality shows ... but this one held my attention. A husband and wife who had 3 biological children have provided a home to many troubled youths. I really don't know if the Bullocks receive any govt aide for this (like foster parents do).

    Time and again we have seen situations like this actually do work. I think there are some common factors that make these work. The young people are moved out of their customary environments, i.e. from the city to more rural areas. Those who want to break free of their environment, need a chance to get away from it so they aren't just sucked back in.

    They have chores to do. They get to see they are capable of learning new skills, and see the product of their efforts in some tangible way. There is discipline and each individual must respect the others they live with. In this regard they seem to resemble the CCCs that Hugh mentions.

    There is a family environment; generally with both a father and mother. The parents provide role models for the youths that they may never have had before.

    As I look at these small-scale situations, I notice that the whole premise could be corrupted if the govt got too involved in promoting them. We have seen a lot of abuses with foster-parent situations that depended more on the greed of the foster parents than their good will. That is certainly not meant to demean the good foster parents, but when the programs get too large, the size of the whole thing creates the same problems it does with other govt agencies that start out with good intentions.

    So, the question might be whether among all the unemployed, there are some mature people who would be very suitable for these kinds of group settings. It's hard for the older unemployeds (50+) to find new positions. Might some of these people fit well into a "ranch" situation?

    Could the concept be tried by diverting a small portion of funds from the SW programs be used for "pilot" programs of this nature?

    There may be no hope for those like De'Marquis who are truly too disturbed to be put in a situation like this, but there may be many others who could benefit.
    G.Clinchy@gmail.com
    "Know in your heart that all things are possible. We couldn't conceive of a miracle if none ever happened." -Libby Fudim

    ​I don't use the PM feature, so just email me direct at the address shown above.

  3. #23
    Senior Member zeus3925's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    West Twin Cities Metro, MN
    Posts
    2,058

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Gerry Clinchy View Post
    We keep talking about what does NOT work ... and not much talking about what does work.

    Don't know whether any of you have seen the UP cable TV station. I stumbled across it the other day/night. It's a family-oriented station. One of their reality shows is Bullock Family Ranch. Didn't see enough of the show to note where the "ranch" is located or what the size of the town nearest the ranch.

    I HATE reality shows ... but this one held my attention. A husband and wife who had 3 biological children have provided a home to many troubled youths. I really don't know if the Bullocks receive any govt aide for this (like foster parents do).

    Time and again we have seen situations like this actually do work. I think there are some common factors that make these work. The young people are moved out of their customary environments, i.e. from the city to more rural areas. Those who want to break free of their environment, need a chance to get away from it so they aren't just sucked back in.

    They have chores to do. They get to see they are capable of learning new skills, and see the product of their efforts in some tangible way. There is discipline and each individual must respect the others they live with. In this regard they seem to resemble the CCCs that Hugh mentions.

    There is a family environment; generally with both a father and mother. The parents provide role models for the youths that they may never have had before.

    As I look at these small-scale situations, I notice that the whole premise could be corrupted if the govt got too involved in promoting them. We have seen a lot of abuses with foster-parent situations that depended more on the greed of the foster parents than their good will. That is certainly not meant to demean the good foster parents, but when the programs get too large, the size of the whole thing creates the same problems it does with other govt agencies that start out with good intentions.

    So, the question might be whether among all the unemployed, there are some mature people who would be very suitable for these kinds of group settings. It's hard for the older unemployeds (50+) to find new positions. Might some of these people fit well into a "ranch" situation?

    Could the concept be tried by diverting a small portion of funds from the SW programs be used for "pilot" programs of this nature?

    There may be no hope for those like De'Marquis who are truly too disturbed to be put in a situation like this, but there may be many others who could benefit.
    Often we would place kids in foster homes or group homes and the result was a remarkable transformation. Once returned to the home though things would deteriorate as the parent(s) had not made permanent changes for themselves. Often the parents would make just enough changes to satisfy a judge. There weren't enough workers available to follow a families indefinitely and sometimes you would see them again on the merry-go-round.

    My work was in protective and support services for vulnerable adults and children. I did not enroll people for welfare. My work was not confined to people on welfare. In fact, I worked with people of all economic classes except maybe the uber-rich. Nor are social problems confined to any race. People are people and they are prone to the same screw ups as the next guy.

    I am totally for discontinuing government programs that don't work. And I do support innovation in government to test seek out procedures that do work.

    Poverty can't be solved by simply throwing money at the problem. Poverty has a very complicated root system. Withdrawing funding and letting people shift for themselves is no answer, either. The blowback might be quite unpleasant. Poverty has to be addressed way ahead of the game beginning with reducing truancy --a truant is your welfare case of the future. The schools have to become engaged in teaching just more than reading, writing and 'rithmetic. They have to get engaged in in teaching basic life skills such as parenting, job searching, living within a marriage, managing money, and basic civility. I know the educators may object to this, but the TV babysitter has placed society in that position. We also need to identify a struggling parent upfront and encourage actions that bring about change before the kid becomes an adolescent and they are faced with a monster.

    I confess I don't have all the answers. But, I do know being totally hardassed in approaching the problem just creates more resistance and resentment. Being a soft touch, warm and fuzzy, doesn't change behavior either. Sometimes you have schmooze like a used car salesman to get people to do what is in their best interest. Maybe we have to develop a sweeter carrot and bigger stick
    Last edited by zeus3925; 08-01-2013 at 08:45 AM.
    Zeus

    I don't want to feed an ugly dog!

  4. #24
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Shelbyville, Tn
    Posts
    1,451

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by zeus3925 View Post
    Often we would place kids in foster homes or group homes and the result was a remarkable transformation. Once returned to the home though things would deteriorate as the parent(s) had not made permanent changes for themselves. Often the parents would make just enough changes to satisfy a judge. There weren't enough workers available to follow a families indefinitely and sometimes you would see them again on the merry-go-round.
    Sounds like we agree. It doesn't work!

  5. #25
    Senior Member Julie R.'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Orlean VA
    Posts
    2,828

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by zeus3925 View Post
    The schools have to become engaged in teaching just more than reading, writing and 'rithmetic. They have to get engaged in in teaching basic life skills such as parenting, job searching, living within a marriage, managing money, and basic civility. I know the educators may object to this, but the TV babysitter has placed society in that position.
    How very sad, that we're becoming a nation of morons spawning evermore mewling morons and expecting the teachers to take them to raise.
    Julie R., Hope Springs Farm
    Chesapeake Bay Retrievers since 1981

  6. #26
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Shelbyville, Tn
    Posts
    1,451

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by zeus3925 View Post
    Often we would place kids in foster homes or group homes and the result was a remarkable transformation. Once returned to the home though things would deteriorate as the parent(s) had not made permanent changes for themselves. Often the parents would make just enough changes to satisfy a judge. There weren't enough workers available to follow a families indefinitely and sometimes you would see them again on the merry-go-round.

    My work was in protective and support services for vulnerable adults and children. I did not enroll people for welfare. My work was not confined to people on welfare. In fact, I worked with people of all economic classes except maybe the uber-rich. Nor are social problems confined to any race. People are people and they are prone to the same screw ups as the next guy.

    I am totally for discontinuing government programs that don't work. And I do support innovation in government to test seek out procedures that do work.

    Poverty can't be solved by simply throwing money at the problem. Poverty has a very complicated root system. Withdrawing funding and letting people shift for themselves is no answer, either. The blowback might be quite unpleasant. Poverty has to be addressed way ahead of the game beginning with reducing truancy --a truant is your welfare case of the future. The schools have to become engaged in teaching just more than reading, writing and 'rithmetic. They have to get engaged in in teaching basic life skills such as parenting, job searching, living within a marriage, managing money, and basic civility. I know the educators may object to this, but the TV babysitter has placed society in that position. We also need to identify a struggling parent upfront and encourage actions that bring about change before the kid becomes an adolescent and they are faced with a monster.

    I confess I don't have all the answers. But, I do know being totally hardassed in approaching the problem just creates more resistance and resentment. Being a soft touch, warm and fuzzy, doesn't change behavior either. Sometimes you have schmooze like a used car salesman to get people to do what is in their best interest. Maybe we have to develop a sweeter carrot and bigger stick
    I missed that part about the schools. You say that you are totally against programs that don't work, yet you say that schools "HAVE" to teach basic life skills. Do you REALLY BELIEVE that idea has Worked???????

    Simple question and can be answered with a yes or no.

  7. #27
    Senior Member zeus3925's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    West Twin Cities Metro, MN
    Posts
    2,058

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by caryalsobrook View Post
    Sounds like we agree. It doesn't work!
    It did work depending if you could get a family to make changes. You hope to give a kid enough resiliency to eventually overcome his background as he matures which happens, too. Again "often" is a non exclusionary term and I would rate the outcome as somewhat successful depending on which point you did your observation. Sometimes we would have to go back in and go at it again. The success rate is also dependent how well a worker can "make the sale" and get parents to look at what could be different about their situation. That is the key. True, I had a 400lb. gorilla sitting on a bench in black robes and a wooden gavel. But, there was nothing like getting someone to look at what was not working and willing to correct it.

    In regard to placement, I had the lowest rate of placing kids in foster care in our agency. Placement can really be destructive in a number of ways to the family and the child. Finding placement with a relative that had things together was least disruptive to the kid and public coffers. The goal is to get the family functioning so they would turnout functioning adults. But, there was that 20% you would see repeatedly.
    Zeus

    I don't want to feed an ugly dog!

  8. #28
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Shelbyville, Tn
    Posts
    1,451

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by zeus3925 View Post
    It did work depending if you could get a family to make changes. You hope to give a kid enough resiliency to eventually overcome his background as he matures which happens, too. Again "often" is a non exclusionary term and I would rate the outcome as somewhat successful depending on which point you did your observation. Sometimes we would have to go back in and go at it again. The success rate is also dependent how well a worker can "make the sale" and get parents to look at what could be different about their situation. That is the key. True, I had a 400lb. gorilla sitting on a bench in black robes and a wooden gavel. But, there was nothing like getting someone to look at what was not working and willing to correct it.

    In regard to placement, I had the lowest rate of placing kids in foster care in our agency. Placement can really be destructive in a number of ways to the family and the child. Finding placement with a relative that had things together was least disruptive to the kid and public coffers. The goal is to get the family functioning so they would turnout functioning adults. But, there was that 20% you would see repeatedly.
    I can imagine what kind of response from a patient had I given this kind of explanation as to why the root canal failed.

  9. #29
    Senior Member zeus3925's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    West Twin Cities Metro, MN
    Posts
    2,058

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Julie R. View Post
    How very sad, that we're becoming a nation of morons spawning evermore mewling morons and expecting the teachers to take them to raise.
    May be so, Julie. But if you look at it that way, cynicism can creep in to the point it will ruin your day. Some of us are raising some damn fantastic people.
    Last edited by zeus3925; 08-01-2013 at 11:08 AM.
    Zeus

    I don't want to feed an ugly dog!

  10. #30
    Senior Member zeus3925's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    West Twin Cities Metro, MN
    Posts
    2,058

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by caryalsobrook View Post
    I can imagine what kind of response from a patient had I given this kind of explanation as to why the root canal failed.
    Working with people is an inexact art, Cary. A used car salesmen doesn't sell make a sale to every customer that comes in. Not every case will be a complete success but doing nothing will be a complete disaster.
    Zeus

    I don't want to feed an ugly dog!

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •