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Thread: Importance of the Dam in breeding

  1. #1
    Senior Member Hambone's Avatar
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    Default Importance of the Dam in breeding

    I frequently look at the classifieds for pups on here and continually see the same scenario. A highly accomplished stud dog bred to a female with little or no titles but a really nice pedigree. I realize the importance of the dam but a lot of breeders seem to want to get puppies out of a dog that has good bloodlines and let the dam's pedigree be her "qualification" for producing potential talent. Some will take a female and get her a MH or maybe even get their dog QAA then turn her into a brood bitch and not run her any more. I understand that it is hard to campaign a female when you want to produce pups out of her. That makes FCXFC litters pretty hard to come by. I often read on RTF and hear from experienced FT folk that you need to get your pups from a proven dam. So, that raises the question - when looking for a potential FC and looking at the dam - would you consider a pup from a dam with great bloodlines but minor or no accomplishment in the game? Are great bloodlines with proven females in the line good enough to take a chance on a pup from such a litter? What factors would you want to consider when deciding whether or not to purchase such a pup, vs. trying to find that magic combination of FC/FC. (if you were lucky enough to get one of those pups and had the $$ to buy one)
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    Senior Member HNTFSH's Avatar
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    Hambone - can only offer my thought process in the pup I picked up last year. I don't have time to Trial, I do make time to Test and Hunt.

    Sire was FC from a pretty reputable line as you normally see. The Dam was not titled at the time of purchase, now SH. Her Dam never titled, injury.

    In the Dam's 5 gen pedigree however (which means going back to whelp dates in the 60's) 2 dogs were not titled at all - both had 3 gen pedigrees from FC/AFC/NFC dogs.

    Other than that - 1 Master dog. 2 QAA dogs. 24 FC/AFC/NFC/ dogs.

    I figured my odds were pretty good at the price point and not twice as good at twice the price from having a more demonstrated Dam.

    But then again - I have no plans to breed, stud, or otherwise expect I'm in this for the money or an FC outcome.
    We shoot dogs with a Canon

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    Hi Hambone - I can only post what I would look for. First, you look for what you are trying to attain. I am currently participating in Field Trials. So - I would look for a bitch with a field trial background. I would want that bitch to be both well bred and successful. A MH bitch from a field trial background pedigree shows me a female who was smart and had the ability to be trained so she would be in my potential mix as well. To me, the bitch is at lest 50% of the equation and probably more. I want my chances to be their best because the price of the puppy is small when it is put up against the cost of training the dog. I know to many well bred females who did not have what it takes to trial who are used for brood bitches. I want my pups mother to be smart, successful AND well bred. I always check the bitch line back 3 or 4 generations to insure that my chances of a weak female are less. If I wanted to attain a GRHRCH, I would follow this same process; looking for successful dogs in the game I was playing and trying to carry on that successful line.
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    I think several issue come to mind as to why females of the FC catagory are in less supply. One, if you spend the time and money to go to FC the return on investment is no where near what a stud dog can do. Second, as with what I am dealing with now, bitches come in season and you loose them for the time. This stops the training but more important stops the competitions as well. I agree with the other posts, I want the female out of very good lines back all the way. And as stated here the money spent on the pup is nothing to what you will put in, and you can't train in what isn't there in the first place. I bought both of my young dogs as I just started back into the game, out of a NFC and FC bitch with the entire pedigree FC except with the sire to Ranger. I couldn't be happier with my picks. Money well spent.

    "This ain't Burger King, you don't get it your way"


    Backwater's Ole' Crow Medicine Show SH "Raven" BLF 7/26/11 (NFC FC AFC Hunter's Run Boo Boo x AFC Beat The Rush)
    Backwater's Gun Powder 'N' Lead "Trigger" BLF 6/30/12 ( FC AFC CJ's Mister T x FC Queen Winhelmina of the Netherlands)
    Backwater's Biker Trash "Scooter" BLM 9/6/2013 (FC AFC Nick of Time Lone Ranger x Good Ideas Windy Retreezer QAA)

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    Senior Member BonMallari's Avatar
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    the Dam is everything in the equation....if she wasnt then everyone would be breeding to the stud of the month and those litters would be producing champions with ease..Have you ever noticed that when litters really click,it seems that the entire litter has got the it gene...the sire may be the marquis name, but IMO the Dam brings more than her 50% to the equation...

    If you have a really good bitch, you usually have your choice of possible suitors....if you have an average or marginal bitch, then you are looking for that ONE stud to magically deliver all the talent to the litter
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    Senior Member DoubleHaul's Avatar
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    Since I am not in the club where puppies our of FC/AFC bitches are available, I had to do a little detective work and roll the dice a little bit. So, I look at the bitches breeding, her accomplishments short of the titles (QAA, derby points, any AA points), and how did any of her previous litters turn out, if any, to come up with what I think are possibilities. Then I show my wife pictures of the sire and dam and she picks the litter based on how cute they are or something.

    I imagine as you put in more time in the game, have success and get to know the right folks it is an interesting progression. Eventually, folks let you in on FC/AFC x FC/AFC breedings and it gets easy--just to with one of those. Then if you have more success, it probably gets tough since lots of folks will want you to train and campaign pups out of their breedings, so you have to start sorting through all those FC/AFC x FC/AFC breedings to find the really, really good ones.

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    Senior Member helencalif's Avatar
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    FC, AFC, FC/AFC bitches who are still young enough to have a litter after obtaining their titles or who are bred during their competitive years and still obtain titles are few and far between.

    Backwater is right about the training and competitive time lost when bitches come into season -- and more time is lost especially if the bitch is bred.

    For example this female ... came into season in early February. That was the end of trialing and training so she missed all spring trials. Puppies born in April and nursed until early-mid May. Back to training in June. She was goofy because of hormones, but training had to start to get her back into physical shape. That took about a month of training (running and swimming). In late June physically she is a competitive bitch, but head-wise, she is still a momma with hormones going. It is now August. She is slowly getting her head on straight, but it is a slow process. Head-wise, she is not back yet. Pups are 3-1/2 months old.

    Guess what. When is the first season after having puppies ? If on her every 6 months cycle, she could come into season end of October. You could say that a bitch can lose a full year of training and competition due to a season, breeding, and whelping.

    There are some who won't breed a competitive bitch for this reason. Some spay them when young. Some put up with the seasons and hope to get her titles by age 7 before they breed. Problem is, breeding a maiden bitch at age 7.

    Helen

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    Senior Member Matt McKenzie's Avatar
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    While I agree that a strong bitch line is very important, some pretty nice dogs have come from dams without an FC or AFC title. Maxx, Tank, Patton (and all his siblings), Lottie, and Grady come to mind. That said, if you look closely at the pedigrees of the dams of all these dogs, you can learn a lot.
    Matt McKenzie

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    Lean Mac's momma only has a WCX. Just saying.

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    Senior Member EdA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Marshall View Post
    Lean Mac's momma only has a WCX. Just saying.
    And that proves what, that one should search for a breeding where the dam has a WCX (whatever that
    is)?

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