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Thread: Who' s the real owner!!!

  1. #21
    Senior Member metalone67's Avatar
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    Man are we in the 3rd grade. If this is indicative of what I'm getting back into, I guess I'll just get my titles and be done with it.
    IMO if at any time a person is getting paid to run a dog he has no business running in the AM.
    Isn't the AM for people that are like the majority of us here?
    Seems a little unfair to have a pro run an individuals dog.
    The foundation to a great retriever is obedience.
    Firestorms Full Throttle Chevy aka Callie-Roo 7/5/2007 - 10/25/2013 I miss you every day
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  2. #22
    Senior Member Ken Bora's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by metalone67 View Post
    ....Isn't the AM for people that are like the majority of us here?......
    In the beginning.
    When Moby Dick was a minnow and Christ was a child. Wealthy Land Barron’s and Rail Road Tycoon’s along with Lawyers and Bankers had huge estates with game stewards and hound men and horse grooms. Somewhere along the line field trials sprang up from the ground. And one Barron’s kennel man would run dogs against another Barron’s kennel man. And then some of those who owned the dogs and the kennel men decided it would be fun to stand in the mud and run the dogs against each other. And the Amateur was born.
    "So what is big is not always the Trout nor the Deer but the chance, the being there. And what is full is not necessarily the creel nor the freezer, but the memory." ~ Aldo Leopold

    "The Greatest Obstacle to Discovery is not Ignorance -- It is the Illusion of Knowledge" ~ Daniel Boorstin

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    I'm just wondering who is the real owner of all these co owned dogs??? They used to be owned by one person now they are owned by multiple people. What gives??? Is this game that important to some that certain individuals think they can't win without a co owner? Even pros are becoming Amatures and running the same dogs they ran as pro's but now they just co own the dogs. They say they don't take money for training but they take it for expenses. What a joke! What a mockery of our sport!
    1st - congratulations on your most recent title . Most posting on this thread would not understand the sacrifice that goes into doing it the right way .

    What you describe is not a recent phenomena, just more blatant than it used to be. We have icons of the sport, RHOF'rs, National Judges & National Am winners that have at one time or another been in the position of doing what you describe. The interesting thing is most were capable of getting where they were without the cheat. But it's no different than the PED's in BB, expect those rules to change as the everyday player is tired of being judged with the cheaters. As long as the ruling class feels they are benefitting from the sport being as it is nothing will change.

    But I have something to offer - have your club adopt a bylaw stating that all unrelated co owners will be required to provide a signed & notarized copy of the contract & expense receipts with their co owner prior to competing in the stake. Anyone who benefits in the exchange by even one dollar is not an amateur. State that in your premium, let the other cllubs cater to cheaters.

    It is interesting that there are so many folks in this sport of above average intelligence & they still can't define "Amateur" to anyone's satisfaction.
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  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marvin S View Post
    1st - congratulations on your most recent title . Most posting on this thread would not understand the sacrifice that goes into doing it the right way .

    What you describe is not a recent phenomena, just more blatant than it used to be. We have icons of the sport, RHOF'rs, National Judges & National Am winners that have at one time or another been in the position of doing what you describe. The interesting thing is most were capable of getting where they were without the cheat. But it's no different than the PED's in BB, expect those rules to change as the everyday player is tired of being judged with the cheaters. As long as the ruling class feels they are benefitting from the sport being as it is nothing will change.

    But I have something to offer - have your club adopt a bylaw stating that all unrelated co owners will be required to provide a signed & notarized copy of the contract & expense receipts with their co owner prior to competing in the stake. Anyone who benefits in the exchange by even one dollar is not an amateur. State that in your premium, let the other cllubs cater to cheaters.

    It is interesting that there are so many folks in this sport of above average intelligence & they still can't define "Amateur" to anyone's satisfaction.

    I think many in the sport "believe" they are of above average intelligence. If they are of above average intelligence, they definitely "SHALL" lack common sense. Or, at least one or two I know do... lol

  5. #25
    Senior Member 2labs's Avatar
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    If a dog is co-owned will it state this on the AKC paperwork for said dog, in a private contract between the owners, or in a handshake?
    Thanks
    Dave
    canine n. Synonymous with courage, valor, trust, selflessness. If we learned to be half of what dogs are, the world would be a much better place

  6. #26
    Senior Member John Robinson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    I don't have a problem with people running a friends dog. I have areal problem with people scamming the system!
    I know we're talking about "co-owned" dogs but at least they go to the trouble of changing ownership papers, I really don't like it when an amateur tags along to run every other dog off a Pro's truck. I don't want to throw the baby out with the bath water, but I don't like the idea even if it's legal. For the most part it's a non-issue, but I just judged an Am where it happened. I wish there was a way to outlaw it without making it illegal for a guy to run his buddy's dog when he can't make it for one reason or another.
    Last edited by John Robinson; 08-13-2013 at 01:09 PM.

  7. #27
    Senior Member huntinman's Avatar
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    The pros that have these dogs know what's going on. If the pros cared one way or the other, they could put a stop to it in 5 minutes. They know who is taking the dogs off their truck. If the owner is in another state and the pro has one of his buddies running the dogs in the AM... Anyone with a brain cell knows what's going on there.

    Maybe the clubs need to talk to the PRTA and have them address it from that angle?
    Bill Davis

  8. #28
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    There are two separate problems being discussed here .

    The first one a) co ownership of a dog by those falling outside the immediate family definition that is already described in the rules, needs that a copy of the registration for the dog in question shows the handler to be an owner be produced upon request of the FTC... and the second, Amateur status as defined b) needs to spell out what, if anything ,is acceptable as a quid pro quo arrangement between the parties as it pertains to maintaining one's amateur status.
    Last edited by john fallon; 08-13-2013 at 01:54 PM.
    "i guess the old saying 'those of us that think we know everything annoy those of you that does' " --bobbyb 9/13/06

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  9. #29
    Senior Member Ted Shih's Avatar
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    Most of you commenting on this thread are just blowing hot air. Lainee is right - talk is cheap.

    Unlike you, I and the other members of the Rocky Mountain Retriever Club have tried to do something. Those efforts - which failed - lead me to believe that you are barking up the wrong tree.

    Our club rejected the entries for the Amateur of a person, who we believed was being paid to train dogs for FT, only to be told that we would need to accept this person's entries for our next field trial.

    In our case, we provided the AKC with deposition testimony of witnesses who saw the person being paid. The deposition testimony of other witnesses detailing how this person showed her clients what she had done with their dogs. Our proof was significant. However, we did not have any written contracts, cancelled checks, etc. (and we lacked the legal authority to obtain such evidence). Several months after we declined this person's entries, we received a letter that we would need to accept the person's entries in the Amateur at our next FT.

    I called Performance Events for an explanation. I was told the club did not prove its case beyond a reasonable doubt. When I asked why a criminal standard (beyond a reasonable doubt) not a civil standard (preponderance of the evidence) did not apply, I was told "Call Legal." When I asked what we should have done differently, I was told "Call Legal."

    When I called Legal, they said "No comment." So expect no backing from the AKC.

    The AKC will not support inquiries into legal contracts, expense receipts etc. They will do nothing that increases the possibility of litigation.

    If you want to do something, other than beat your chest on the internet, I suggest you support a limit on the number of dogs that a person can run in the Amateur.

    It would be easy to enforce, and thus, possible to promulgate.

    All these other proposals - if someone actually did something other than type on RTF - are doomed to failure

    The RAC is considering limits on the number of dogs a person can run in the Amateur - that is something doable
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  10. #30
    Senior Member huntinman's Avatar
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    Ted, for some reason you think because you have done something, you are the only one to have the experience? Maybe the hot air is coming from your end... Give me a break.

    As for your story, you have told it here at least a half dozen times since I've been here. It must have made an impact on you.

    You are not the first guy to get shot down by AKC. Nor the last. Get over it.
    Bill Davis

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