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Thread: AKC Senior HT Question

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    Senior Member DMA's Avatar
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    Default AKC Senior HT Question

    http://viewer.zmags.com/publication/...d#/f4c3d37d/46

    I don't run senior but every 4-5 years (when I get a new pup) and was asked a couple questions at the latest hunt test that I wasn't sure of.

    1). In the above link I read that Seniors has a diversion shot but at a couple of the last tests I've been to there were diversion birds in senior. Since I usually run Masters I wasn't too concern but some folks in the Gallery were. Is'nt this allowed?

    2). at Seniors the land blind was ran out side of the marks, however; there was a diversion bird thrown and the blind was between one of the marks and the fall area of the diversion bird. Since the diversion bird is not a mark is this allowed?

    I didn't see too many dogs have problems with these senerios but I would like to be able to answer these correctly while the gallery is going batty.

  2. #2
    Senior Member DoubleHaul's Avatar
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    In Senior, there must be a diversion shot and there may be a diversion bird. The blind cannot be run between the marks in a SH test but it could be run between a mark and a diversion bird, since that is not a mark. That would be a very meaty SH test.

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    Senior Member ada5771's Avatar
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    I have a question on diversions... let’s say the thrower is late on the diversion throw and is thrown on the side/angled back away from the dog as he returns. Can the dog stop on route, turn his body and mark the diversion as it falls, then promptly return to the handler? Or is the dog required to not stop at all?
    Drew Allain

    Cajun Made King "Zeus"

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    Quote Originally Posted by ada5771 View Post
    I have a question on diversions... let’s say the thrower is late on the diversion throw and is thrown on the side/angled back away from the dog as he returns. Can the dog stop on route, turn his body and mark the diversion as it falls, then promptly return to the handler? Or is the dog required to not stop at all?
    "Diversion birds shall always be initiated in front of the working dog. The diversion bird is not a mark but constitutes a trainability situation. It is always retrieved by the working dog. Diversion birds shall be shot or thrown when the working dog is in a location that it should be able to see the bird as it goes up into the air and as it falls."

    "(7) While diversion shot(s) shall be used, diversion bird(s) may be used. Such diversions may also consist of, or be incorporated with the use of one or more hidden duck or goose calls.
    (8) Dogs that switch shall be scored “0” in Perseverance and cannot receive a Qualifying score."

    It is not necessary to stop your dog, and blowing a sit whistle to let your dog, sit, mark the fall, and return to heel is perfectly acceptable.

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    Senior Member ada5771's Avatar
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    Couldn't the diversion be initiated in front the dog and still fall behind the dog... If so... What if you dont blow a sit whistle and your dog just natraully stops and marks the diversion to the ground? Is that something a judge would mark down for?
    Drew Allain

    Cajun Made King "Zeus"

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    Quote Originally Posted by ada5771 View Post
    Couldn't the diversion be initiated in front the dog and still fall behind the dog... If so... What if you dont blow a sit whistle and your dog just natraully stops and marks the diversion to the ground? Is that something a judge would mark down for?
    No, just because the dog wasn't verbally or physically commanded to sit, there's no way for the judges to tell the dog just hasn't been trained to sit everytime a bird is thrown. If your dog sat and dropped the bird he had, but picks it back up, you could be marked down in trainability. But as long as your dog doesn't switch and pick up the diversion bird you'll be fine.

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    Senior Member ada5771's Avatar
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    Thanks kind of a ridiculous situation but i was just wondering
    Drew Allain

    Cajun Made King "Zeus"

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    Senior Member DoubleHaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ada5771 View Post
    Couldn't the diversion be initiated in front the dog and still fall behind the dog... If so... What if you dont blow a sit whistle and your dog just natraully stops and marks the diversion to the ground? Is that something a judge would mark down for?
    No. The dog is going to watch the diversion go down--I don't think you could train a dog with any retrieving desire at all not to watch the bird. In fact, you want them to watch since you are most likely going to ask them to pick it up.

    If I were to do a diversion bird in a SH test, it would be totally pass/fail. If the dog doesn't drop the existing bird and pick up the diversion, that is what you want. In a MH it isn't that much different. I might ding you a little bit on trainability if you had a battle not to pick up the diversion but if the dog doesn't it is fine. Usually it is all or nothing. Most dogs will take a few steps toward it before remembering what they are supposed to do. The old salts will watch and then head for home so they can come back and get that one. If they are going to get it, it is all over quickly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ada5771 View Post
    Couldn't the diversion be initiated in front the dog and still fall behind the dog... If so... What if you dont blow a sit whistle and your dog just natraully stops and marks the diversion to the ground? Is that something a judge would mark down for?
    In a word , "No." About the only thing your dog can do to get eliminated at the point the diversion is available is to drop the mark and pick-up the diversion.

    It's rare that this happens but as I recall, most of us agree that a dog could even return with both the diversion and the mark as long as it didn't set the mark down to pick up the diversion. IOW, as long as the diversion and mark are in the dog's mouth in the correct order, the dog will not be eliminated for this. This is an extreme case but it does happen and is the reason why my diversion birds are marked with a bit of flagging tape.
    Eric

    WRC HR Lennoxlove's Run with Wolves JH, WCX ("Cheyenne") ... still so fondly remembered
    HRCh Struan's Devil's in De Tails SH, WCX ("Lucy")
    SR CH Struan's Flight of Fancy JH ("Muse")
    Struan's Master of the Hunt JH, WC ("Charlie")
    Struan's Just Plain Perfect ("Jane")
    Struan's Driving Us Crazy ("Daisy") ... the baby in charge

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    Senior Member RookieTrainer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Johnson View Post
    In a word , "No." About the only thing your dog can do to get eliminated at the point the diversion is available is to drop the mark and pick-up the diversion.

    It's rare that this happens but as I recall, most of us agree that a dog could even return with both the diversion and the mark as long as it didn't set the mark down to pick up the diversion. IOW, as long as the diversion and mark are in the dog's mouth in the correct order, the dog will not be eliminated for this. This is an extreme case but it does happen and is the reason why my diversion birds are marked with a bit of flagging tape.
    My dog tried to bring both back at his last Seasoned test last spring. Luckily my judge has marked the diversion bird as you described and my dog ended up coming back with the original bird. He is a very interesting character, to say the least. If I didn't love the little turd I probably would have killed him at least 5 times now.

    By the way, I then had to line him up and run him to a blind between the diversion and a mark. He handled it fine.
    Steve Wyatt

    HR Belle's Rolling Big Rig "Jimmy"

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