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FT Goldens then and now =Barty?

41K views 174 replies 39 participants last post by  Diane Brunelle 
#1 · (Edited)
The Lab thread got me thinking of this. It seems most of the current great FT Goldens are closely or not too distantly descended from Holway Barty or Topbrass Cotton (son of Barty) on both sides.

Are current FC AFC Goldens that much different from Barty, the son of two English FTCH? I know English trial standards have changed as well as US standards, but the genes of Barty or Cotton can't be that much different from current FT Goldens. Or do you think they are? If not, perhaps we should help the breed pool on both sides of the pond by breeding US to UK.

Thoughts? Reflections on current FT Goldens vs Past?
 
#143 ·
Another knowledgeable Golden person is Chris Brasswell. As the breeder of Stanley she has contributed to the modern gene pool.

Jeff

PS - and no I am not a closet Golden person :) even though I like Casey
 
#144 ·
Best in show, maybe not. But a finished champion, I think yes.
I think you miss the point...that dog did go BIS in his time and I really doubt if he could be a finished champion in the US today.
 
#149 ·
Really neat photo, Jim! Hope you frame that one!

And Earl, After reading this thread once and doing some extra research, I felt like I might understand your posts better, so went back and read them again. WOW! You really were in the thick of it! Thanks for sharing that history!

Hope Chris is right about you going RED again!

Jen
 
#150 ·
This discussion made me dig out the book "The Complete Golden Retriever" by Gertrude Fischer. Before Barty, there are post war pictures of Dual Ch Stubblesdown Lass & Ftd Ch Musicmaker of Yeo & National Ftd Ch Mazurka Of Wynford and many more. On the cover Ch Finderne Gold Cloud of Kent. - this book makes ya think where we have been and where are we going?
 
#154 ·
Jennifer, there was more than one edition of Gertrude's book and they are different, especially in terms of the pictures included. You might want to also check for other editions if you're gathering a library.
 
#156 · (Edited)
Yes, that is what I wanted to post...have the older edition, 1974 ..and then received a New 2nd Edition, 1984 with obedience ring placement ribbon...has more photos etc that Judy mentions. Not sure if there is another since the '84..oooops guess there is a '94 edition..will check it, as well.
 
#161 ·
I bet. I watched him win the Specialty in 2011. My Clyde son was running the derby. I hope to run him in some quals this Spring. When I was inquiring about his litter, Mickey said Clyde was the real deal. There weren't too many litters on the ground at that point. Several folks have used him now. Time will tell what kind of an impact he will have on our breed.
 
#162 ·
He has close to 100 or so pups on the ground. He is prepotent and throws himself. Chris has a three year QAA of him Doc, with Derby points, watch for him he is running him in the all- age. Clyde is one if the nicest water dogs around, water is just something to go through. A 60 hour a week second shift job, completely amateur trained, and his first trial dog has taken it's toll otherwise he would be titled. When we aren't shut down by weather we train 6 days a week , never have seen Clyde down!
 
#163 ·
I finally had time to sit down and read this whole thread--what a nice history of some of our foundation goldens. Does anybody remember FC Sir Arthur (besides me, I mean)? Ray Sommers trained him and I was lucky enough to meet them both while we lived in WI. What a clown! He'd spin circles going to the line, on the line, off the line. I never saw a dog spin like that again until Joe Boatright's lab and he was just as exciting to watch as Sir Arthur.
Shortly after we moved to WI, we met a fellow who had a CH bitch by Sir Arthur out of Roxanne of Arborvita and she was a beautiful hunting machine. My husband came home one day saying he'd found the nice people who owned the female the Loomis' had gotten their dog and they had a litter of puppies and even better, they had a Christmas tree farm! Well, long story short I went from, "We can't afford a dog.", to "How much are they?" HOLY MOSES....a hundred dollars???? For a dog???? to "We can go look at them, but we cannot, under any circumstances, afford a dog." We don't have any place to keep it, you only own a 30-06--not a shotgun (at least I knew that much), I went on and on. My husband said, I can get a gun--they're not expensive (insert Belgium Browning) & besides, it'll save us money, I'll be able to hunt pheasants and chukkars and put food on the table...............sigh. Do you know what happens when you see a litter of golden puppies for the very first time? First they run up to you and wiggle all over the place, then they grab your shoe laces and pull them apart, then when you bend down to retie your shoes, they jump up and lick you all over the place! Well, we bought a pup & paid the breeders $25.00 a month for 4 months. Mr. Williams, the owner of the stud, Stilrovin Luke Adew, was sending his pro down to take first pick. So we chose ours and a second just in case. The pro said he would take the entire litter (not uncommon) and see which ones were worth training. The breeder told him we had aleady given her a deposit, so he could have all of them but one. He took his first pick (thankfully NOT our pick) and took the rest of the litter. We named our pup "Rip" after the first U.S. CH Rip. We knew less than nothing about training, but Don Loomis belonged to a club called W.A.F.T.C. so off my husband and the puppy went to learn how to hunt birds. At a picnic trial, Rip couldn't find the first bird and my husband was very disappointed, but a nice gentleman came up to him and suggested a few things including not to rush the puppy and then invited us up to his place to train. He had a place at Random Lake and his name was Charlie Morgan. Then we met Ray Sommers and Dr. Lardy, and a whole bunch of trainers, owners, and retrievers. Rip ran 3 Derbies, made the Derby list, ran 3 Quals and was QAA and then, a fellow that lived down the road from us named Del Glodowski said Rip was quite nice looking and since he showed dogs on weekends, he'd like to put Rip in the ring.......well, before we knew it, Rip had I don't know how major reserves out of the puppy class and was well on his way to being a really nice dog. Unfortunately, my husband lost his job and although we received an extremely good offer to purchase Rip, we just couldn't sell him. So he grew old in California and that was that. But, he got us started in goldens. Luke Adew became a FC/AFC, Roxanne of Arborvita placed in a trial. We met and trained with the Venerables, Christiansen's, Vern & Ethel Weber and a lot of really nice goldens (and an occasional lab, too). Someplace I have a couple of old F.T. catalogues from WI. with all
those wonderful old dogs and their owners.
I remember the goldens were darker red, good sized and some were heavier boned than many of the goldens today.

Suzanne B
 
#165 ·
Great Great story, Suzanne! Thanks for sharing that. Love hearing about you lucky ducks who fall bass akwards into luck with meeting people like Charles Morgan and Dr. Lardy and getting pups from great parents!

Loved the part about you and hubby arguing about getting the pup and the gun...Look at the heights you've reached! Truly a wonderful story.

I'll shut up now...

Jennifer
 
#166 ·
Earl, thanks for sharing your observations about Clyde. For rookies like me, it is so valuable to hear from people with your experience and first hand knowledge of specific existing dogs. Really raised my eyebrows. Maybe a good topic for a new thread: Experienced views on current competitors.
 
#169 ·
We certainly were lucky--there we were right in the middle of "all that wonderful golden history" and didn't even know it! I shoulda taken notes....and pictures!
So glad you've been talking about Clyde. I had finally decided after way too long, to breed one of my girls and thought Clyde would be perfect as she's an outcross and I absolutely love his pedigree, particularly "Sprint". I'd wanted to breed Nell to Sprint, but couldn't make it work--and went with another favorite--Mioak's Main Event--that worked out pretty darn well. In any event, I talked with my vet about breeding an older girl and he said she was as healthy as they came, but why hadn't I done it sooner? I told him I wouldn't breed a litter when there was a recession going on because I'm a worrywart about that sort of thing. Well I did some more research and before I could even contact Clyde's owner, Flirt had what I thought was a bladder infection--it wasn't, it was pyo and I had her spayed. Darn, I sure would have liked to see what those two could have produced.
SuzanneB
 
#170 ·
So glad you've been talking about Clyde. I had finally decided after way too long, to breed one of my girls and thought Clyde would be perfect as she's an outcross and I absolutely love his pedigree, particularly "Sprint". I'd wanted to breed Nell to Sprint, but couldn't make it work--and went with another favorite--Mioak's Main Event--that worked out pretty darn well. In any event, I talked with my vet about breeding an older girl and he said she was as healthy as they came, but why hadn't I done it sooner? I told him I wouldn't breed a litter when there was a recession going on because I'm a worrywart about that sort of thing. Well I did some more research and before I could even contact Clyde's owner, Flirt had what I thought was a bladder infection--it wasn't, it was pyo and I had her spayed. Darn, I sure would have liked to see what those two could have produced.
SuzanneB
I might have been in line for that one, Suzanne.
 
#173 · (Edited)
Right you are, Kippy! I guess cuz it was, for many pages, about the history, like you said. But, now that it has progressed into including present day, and some possible comparisons of present day matches and "back in the day" matches, and including some really nice goldens of today, We gotta mention Big Red. :) (Those close to him call him "the big red dog", I call him Big Red for short. The horse people out there will know why. :) ) Jakey boy is one of those dogs they will be talking about for many years, as one of those, not only special Goldens, but special "retrievers" that happened to be a Golden. And definately has made an impact on the Golden retriever world.
He is definately a great dog. I've even heard folks that have seen him run say things like," He has the water skills of a Lab." or "He thinks he's a Lab." Well, I'll have to only partially agree. And, I understand these comments are just made in fun, and are sincere compliments. But, Jakey doesn't think he's anything besides a part of John & Andy's families. And yes he has the skills of the best of any breed. He's one of the great ones. :)
 
#172 ·
IMO Jake has proven himself as a producer, for sure. BTW, Jake was the test dog for the first series of the specialty derby in 2011 (John ending up having to judge). He might have been a little underwhelmed by that double:p

Didn't your daughter run him John?
 
#174 ·
Good memory Brad! Jake will run for anyone.

My daughter first ran Jake when he was a 2 year old fresh out of his Derby career. My daughter Mary was only 3. They were great in the land series and nailed the water double with a flyer. I forgot he had to honor in that series. He had not been taught that yet. It was too much for them and he had a controlled break. I've got the video of it somewhere. Love watching him run pre-injury. Gives me goosebumps....and tears.

Thanks guys for including Jake.

He's our once in a lifetime dog. Lucy might be our 2nd. Don't know how much luck a couple of guys with day jobs can have, but we are very thankful for our good fortunes and thankful for all of the support over the years. So much from friends that normally prefer other breeds!
 
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