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Question for akc rules junkies

27K views 147 replies 42 participants last post by  skelso 
#1 ·
AKC senior hunt test water series. The setup was one mark on the right thrown right to left on the opposite bank. The go bird was left of the line on the near bank to be tossed into the water. The blind was in between the marks almost directly across from the line.

Because the blind was between the marks, it was to be run first. The hunt test committee had to approve all setups and they disapproved this one because of the location of the blind (between marks).

I thought this was ok because the blind was to be run first.
 
#92 ·
I know it is against the rules but I did it anyway. I contacted the AKC and got this reply from Mr Mann.

"Mr. John,

The official interpretation of the Regulations is that blinds in "Senior" tests may not be run between (physical location) the two marks of the double on either land or water.

While it may not be in the best interest of the judges to do so (when considering whether or not they want to be invited for future judging assignments) there is no Regulation against a judge/s requiring that a blind be picked up after one of the two marks has first been retrieved and before the second mark is retrieved!

I hope this helps with the clarification!!

Thanks,

Jerry D. Mann
Field Director
Sporting Breeds"
 
#96 ·
I GIVE UP!

I am more confused now than ever.

Before someone says " Gooser , do we need to draw you a picture"?


Will some body PLEASE draw Gooser a picture?
 
#93 · (Edited)
Section 6. Senior Hunting Test. Dogs shall be
tested in a minimum of four hunting situations that shall include one land blind, one water blind (that may be run as a double blind on land and water), one double land mark,and one double water mark. There shall be at least one
diversion shot and at least one of the hunting situations should include a walk-up. In Senior tests, a double mark is
defined as two marks presented before the dog is sent to
retrieve. Blinds shall not be run between marks in Senior
Hunting Tests.



Even though the the last sentence of the above paragraph when read in conjunction with the next to the last sentence states what could [/] be construed as a prohibition to do so... The AKC has spoken, so to extrapolate

Is it then permisable to interrupt one of the two required double marks with a double blind consisting of one land blind and one water blind?

john
 
#97 ·
The Field Rep from the AKC just said it was permissible; however, it's un-necessary to do so to find out which dogs deserve a Senior pass and ribbon.

Senior Judges shouldn't be afraid to judge. Those that are, are forced to eliminate with over the top tests. In senior, the dogs which are not sufficiently trained will fail a difficult, straight up test. You don't need to do this kind of stuff.

There are many people who participate in Senior level tests who have no aspiration to run Master tests. Interrupted marks were the 'test du jour' in region 1 Master tests this past year, so why do it in Senior?-Paul
 
#94 ·
Gooser I totally with your last statement there. Believe me I have ran Sr test that were hard then a master going on at same time. As I have stated earlier as a handler and a judge I believe in challenging dogs. But be fair about.
 
#95 ·
I can say this. Most of time when we all run into this. Key words there is MOST. You have the most points carrying judge trying to impress their co-judge. Or a Master level judge not toning down from Master level. I really didn't want to make that statement but it's true because I have personally witness it as a judge when I first started judging. I spoke my piece to those judges an some agree an change setups an others didn't agree with me. One even over ruled me on a setup because they were high point judge. I have noted not to judge or run dogs under judges like that.
 
#98 ·
I also agree with Gooser. Each level is its own level with its own requirements. Demonstrate the skills for that level and your good. As a judge its up to me to set a fair test that demonstrates that dogs ability based on its level. Shame on me as a judge for not doing that.

/Paul
 
#99 ·
I'm with gooser. Did the Mann say u can't run between two gun stations of a double before the marks are thrown? Or not? Is this different than what the Mann said in the seminar attended by GC and others?
 
#100 · (Edited)
REmember,, I am NOT COMPLAINING.. I willtrain for what I need to to pass a test,,, But,,


What on earth is the thinking from AKC officials to require a dog in testing to see a diversion bird ON ITS WAY OUT on a blind retrieve.

A SENIOR DOG! A dog that most of us have spent considerable amount of time getting them to have good blind attitude, to RUN STRAIGHT as sent, only then in testing to have a judge deliberately erode that momentum with a diversion on a dogs route TO a blind?

I just dont get this at ALL for a Senior dog.

A diversion bird on the RETURN of a mark or a Blind is FINE with me I get it,,, But why with young dogs,as the dog is going??? ON A BLIND??? The part of a dogs training we work so hard at getting them to GO,,, and then stay straight??
I mean really,, Is this the only way you can come up with to test control?

Rule book says the following.


Section 25. Diversion Birds and Shots. A diversion
shot is a shot in which no bird is thrown, and shall
only be fired in Senior and Master Tests.
Diversion birds may appear on a blind retrieve either
after the dog has been sent for, or when a dog is returning
from the blind retrieve; however, diversion birds shall
only appear on marks when the dog is returning from a
retrieve.
Diversion birds shall always be initiated in front of
the working dog. The diversion bird is not a mark but
constitutes a trainability situation. It is always retrieved
by the working dog. Diversion birds shall be shot or
thrown when the working dog is in a location that it
should be able to see the bird as it goes up into the air
and as it falls.
Section 26. Weather. Weather is an important
consideration for the hunting test event committee.
The safety of participants and animals is of utmost
importance. Extreme weather such as lightening, strong
winds, heat or cold, snow or heavy rain can create
hazardous conditions. The hunting test event committee,
in consultation with the judges, has the responsibility to
decide if an event should be halted due to weather and
at what point the event shall resume. If a weather delay
results in an entrant being unable to participate, the
refund of entry fees, in whole or in part, will be at the
discretion of the event committee. If an entire event or
part of an event is cancelled due to weather, the refund
of entry fees, in whole or in part, will be at the discretion
of the event committee.
 
#101 ·
Gooser I agree with you on this one for senior dogs. If you need to do that to see control at Sr level evidently you have weak blind. Gooser how dogs were lost on the blind?
 
#102 ·
Section 25. Diversion Birds and Shots. A diversion
shot is a shot in which no bird is thrown, and shall
only be fired in Senior and Master Tests.
Diversion birds may appear on a blind retrieve either
after the dog has been sent for, or when a dog is returning
from the blind retrieve; however, diversion birds shall
only appear on marks when the dog is returning from a
retrieve.

This is the result of a rewriting on the section to limit the use of bird thrown as the dog is going out to a mark....An actual hunting situation deemed not good by the AKC ...Too many concerns over to handle for changing selection of bird in route or it being called a switch by some ( not an actual switch )....and the handle being counted against the dog...and a switch resulted in an elimination...Dogs pop as the extra bird was thrown or shot , now what ...a pop ? How do judges handle that incident..? This was never meant to to do any thing but stop the use of a bird in route to a mark...Poison birds on blinds before the dog is sent or in route has always been allowed...Steve S
 
#103 ·
IMHO, Tests for senior dogs should be set up to test the dogs, not to trick them. Based on input, it may be legal, but I think that one should consider the reason blinds are not to be run after marks when in between the marks for senior dogs. That rule is to keep things a bit more straight forward for senior dogs. Any rule can be stretched a bit to make things more difficult for them, but I don't think that should be our mind set. Things can be made plenty tough enough without working on the fringes of any rule. That is why poison birds can only be thrown at the appropriate time during marks and blinds and why distances are established for marks and blinds, etc.
 
#104 ·
IMHO, Tests for senior dogs should be set up to test the dogs, not to trick them. Based on input, it may be legal, but I think that one should consider the reason blinds are not to be run after marks when in between the marks for senior dogs. That rule is to keep things a bit more straight forward for senior dogs. Any rule can be stretched a bit to make things more difficult for them, but I don't think that should be our mind set. Things can be made plenty tough enough without working on the fringes of any rule. That is why poison birds can only be thrown at the appropriate time during marks and blinds and why distances are established for marks and blinds, etc.

If you think running the blind before the marks is making things tough ,I would examine all the other possible situations...When ever this has been done when I was present it simplified things...not tougher....Steve S
 
#106 ·
I was lucky enough today to sit down and talk with Jerry Mann about this. The bottom line as far as AKC goes is that if the marks are not thrown before the blind is run there are NO marks that the blind is run between. A mark is not a mark until it is presented.
 
#108 ·
The bottom line as far as AKC goes is that if the marks are not thrown before the blind is run there are NO marks that the blind is run between. A mark is not a mark until it is presented.


I'm not a fan of second hand information... If the AKC has a position on the blind between the marks matter, It should be sent out as an insert to the rule book.

john
 
#109 · (Edited)
Here's another passage from the rule book:



"On blind retrieves, wherever possible, the Judges shall
plan their hunting situations taking advantage of hazards,
such as islands, decoys, points of land, sandbars, ditches,
hedges, small bushes, adjacent heavy cover, and rolling
terrain
. Despite such natural distractions, it shall be
possible for a dog to find a well-planned blind-retrieve on
the initial line from its handler; that it will do so is highly
improbable because of those natural hazards, so it must
be handled to the blind. The hunting situation should be
planned so that the dog should be in sight continuously. A
blind retrieve is a test of Trainability (control, response). A
dog that is out-of-sight for a considerable period cannot be
said to be under control. Utilizing natural hazards provides
better opportunity to evaluate the abilities required of a
superb Retriever.


Gooser doesnt believe a Bird station with BB sitting in it 100 yrds away from the line, with Birds in Crates , Or dead in buckets are NATURAL Distractions.

For a Judge to use a gun station IN SENIOR to test a dog on how it handles under natural conditions, isnt following the spirt of the rules.. That Judge has an EGO,, and is trying to trick a YOUNG dog,, then Gloat later of how his test "Ate Dogs"

How is a Gun Station a Natural distraction as defined above in the rules??

I am still lost.

Gooser
 
#123 ·
Here's another passage from the rule book:

Gooser doesnt believe a Bird station with BB sitting in it 100 yrds away from the line, with Birds in Crates , Or dead in buckets are NATURAL Distractions.


How is a Gun Station a Natural distraction as defined above in the rules??

I am still lost.

Gooser
How much more natural can you get than bird scent..? Steve S
 
#110 ·
AND believe me!

Right now I can hear a LOT you guys sitting behind you key boards sayin "Oh that whiney Gooser... He needs to come to here and run MY test! We'll find out then what that flea bag a his is made of!"

Really? Is THAT what this program is about??
 
#115 · (Edited)
"He needs to come to here and run MY test!"

"That Judge has an EGO,, and is trying to trick a YOUNG dog,, then Gloat later of how his test "Ate Dogs"
Therein lies the problem with some judges. How many lament that their test "Ate Dogs" ? Particularly at the lower levels.

I am editing this to emphasize the word SOME in the above sentence. Certainly not all and like gooser says below, sometimes what looks doable is just not what it seems.
 
#112 ·
Geez Gooser, ya saying that bird boy is unnatural?

Whadayathink his momma would say?

:twisted:
 
#116 ·
I haven't judged much but have set up lots of training scenarios. Sometimes I will setup thinking it is straight forward and the dogs do terrible.
I don't think judges set out to trick or fail dogs. They do like me some time and don't realize how deceptive the setup is.
A judge recently asked me what I thought of the land series. I told him I thought the blind was difficult and he replied yes it was deceptively so. I thought that was an honest response.
 
#122 ·
Wayne, I don't believe there is a single judge that can honestly say they never regret a set up for some reason..I have mine for sure...I always remember it at every event too....Steve S
 
#117 ·
I didnt say ALL judges do,, I said SOME Judges MIGHT.

Like some here that have posted earlier, that have said that IN THEIR OPINION,, AKC or WE should expect more out of dogs, than the standard may state.

Thats THEIR opinion. Either they are setting tests up to advance that opinion deliberately,, or they dont understand the standard, and make mistakes.

So, Based on this discussion we have had, that is pages long, clearly interprets the running rules differently,, How do you prepare a dog for Senior?

I believe MANY had decided to say Screw Senior,, and just run Master. I think that is a shame, and is a black eye on the venue.

Gooser
 
#118 · (Edited)
There is a way to trick a young dog by running a blind between the gun stations before the marks are thrown and there are ways to NOT trick a dog by running the blind between the gun stations before the marks are thrown.

There is a way to trick a dog by running a blind outside the gun stations after the marks are thrown and picked up and there are ways NOT to trick a dog by running a blind to the outside of marks before the marks are thrown .
One would have to see the test first ,,,right,,
tests should contain meat,,but shouldn't be tricky ,,a toddler can trick a dog. Sometimes there's a fine line between the 2 depending who 's eyes are looking at it.
Pete
 
#119 ·
I think that there is a difference between a test that is too hard for the particular class of dog (e.g. under the arc poison bird blind in Qualifying) and a test that is intended to trick a dog (e.g. dry guns in a marking test)

It seems that most people here are concerned that certain tests are inappropriately difficult for Senior level dogs - not that the judges are employing a deceptive technique.
 
#121 · (Edited)
I think that there is a difference between a test that is too hard for the particular class of dog (e.g. under the arc poison bird blind in Qualifying) and a test that is intended to trick a dog (e.g. dry guns in a marking test)

It seems that most people here are concerned that certain tests are inappropriately difficult for Senior level dogs - not that the judges are employing a deceptive technique.
And some just want come and pick up the ribbons ...Some have higher expectations of dogs ability than others...A blind is about control ...The dog should sit on a whistle and take a cast.. They may need a few more whistles than the master dog does to complete the same blind...Natural hazards include points, islands,logs,stick ups and the like...Not just open water across the 35 yard pond to the bank ,which is what a up the middle water blind before the marks usually is ...Steve S
 
#127 ·
Back when my first dog and I were passing Senior hunt test, but nowhere near ready for Master, my dog was a solid duck hunter. He marked well and handled on 100 yard blinds across the pond. The guys I hunted with certainly considered him a Working Retriever, the appropriately named NAHRA title he also earned that summer.
 
#131 ·
Any good working retriever should be able to get that 1oo yard blind...I'm sure your dog performed very well in the duck blind...Was the reason you weren't ready for master is because the polish wasn't there yet? As any Sr titled dog usually is ....Steve S
 
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