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shopping the pile

13K views 62 replies 21 participants last post by  Jennifer Henion 
#1 ·
Just a beginner with lots of questions. Doing pile work and my girl wants to sample all the wares. Trys all the bumpers till she finds the one that is "just right". ccd and ffd. Maybe not good enough on the force fetch? Suggestions?
 
#2 ·
Do you have her on a rope? That is one of its purposes; to correct shopping. "Here"/tug is the treatment. Keep a foot or two between the bumpers.

Evan
 
#3 ·
I know I was having this problem too. Like Evan said, key was the rope for yard work teaching the pile (starting 5 ft from pile, and max 20-25 ft) once we had that down it was to a larger field we went....this is where I learned distance between your bumpers is key and I also noticed for my pup if there was not enough distance between the bumpers (and if the smaller ones were up front) she easily overran them for larger middle of the pile bumpers, creating some confusion when she turned around to see more upon return. Rope and stretching the pile (deepen it with added distance) are my 2 cents...and in my case use a consistent bumper size or the bigger ones up front :)
 
#7 · (Edited)
Trust me I am no expert, but with the great advise from other members here on RTF, I found indirect pressure with the collar to be most productive to cure shopping the pile. My rope work isn't the best, was always tangling, getting wrapped around the dog's behind, and was more of a distraction to the dog than anything else etc. Using indirect pressure, if he shopped I would command Sit with a nick, then fetch come. Once I was getting good results with that I moved on to force to pile. I dont have anymore shopping the pile issues and the dog has a strong compulsion to get to that pile and grab one bumper and return now that we are in FTP.

Good luck with your dog
 
#8 ·
I am thinking about this and wonder why "shopping" is such a bad thing. My thoughts say that the dog just needs to bring back "a" bumper not a particular one. I seems to me that a good part of what we do involves the dog having fun until the point they make a serious mistake. I am looking for perspective here so thanks for answers.
 
#10 ·
In my humble inexperienced opinion I think that is fine in force to pile, but if introducing to pile work I would use the rope as others have suggested if proficient with it without distracting the dog, but in my case I am not proficient enough with it. So I used indirect pressure, by commanding sit "nick", then a fetch come. I saved the fetch (Back command) with a "nick" until force to pile.
 
#15 ·
Who cares? The dog went where sent, picks up a bumper, brings it back and delivers properly. What else do you want?
I have had a few shoppers and I never let it bother me. When it comes to test time or hunting, it won't be an issue.
It is a minor avoidance/ confusion issue that goes away in time when the dog becomes more familiar and comfortable with the drill.
Continue on with your progression in whatever program you are using.
MP
 
#18 ·
THIS!!!!! I have found correcting one small problem usually leads to a bigger one.Plus the fact I`m not a nagger!!!! Jim
 
#16 ·
I agree with Evan - its's a recall issue - and I also agree with Mike Perry!....

I'd live with the swap if I was achieving my objective of dog powering out (or whatever you are doing this drill/exercise for), but I would note it for later, and work on it separately. ie. set up an exercise that specifically deals with 'swapping' (or shopping). For me, I do this with short marks that are just thrown right next to each other.
 
#19 ·
A "pile of bumpers" is not a pile. ;)

Here's a "mini"-ipile and Gunny ready to "work" a regular pile.

No shopping afterwards regards, Jim
On the money as usual, Jim!
I agree with Evan - its's a recall issue - and I also agree with Mike Perry!....
I've watched sessions in which the trainer opted to ignore the shopping. Sessions usually took at least twice as much time, and literally trained the dog to shop. Why would you do that when de-shopping takes so little time and effort?

Does it have long term effects? Sometimes yes/sometimes no. I tend to err on the side of "I can control being smart better than I can control being lucky", and simply train the dog. It's easy and much more fun to live with.

Evan
 
#25 ·
Swapping birds is a crime here as well, Switching. But the 2 birds would not be very close together. In other words once a dog picked up a mark or a blind he would have to go well out of his way to grab a different bird.
As for dropping birds, dog may do so prior to delivery, no problem. However, if handler drops bird while taking it from the dog's mouth that's a different story.
 
#32 ·
It was my original post. i spent the last two mornings sending her at close(20') range to three groups of three bumpers. I was close enough to yell a loud no! when she dropped her initial selection, called her back to heel and sent her again with loud praises if she brought back her first touch. Did pretty good yesterday and not a miss today! I'll back off tomorrow to greater distance but so far i'm encouraged.
 
#33 ·
It appears that there are different definitions of "shopping". I think of it as a dog looking at one then another then another then finally picking one up. IMO once they pick one up, they should bring it promptly to hand. If they drop one and then get another, it is a switch. No switches ever allowed!!!!!!
Before I begin pile work, mine are already collar fetched and if they pick one up, then drop it, it is correction time. I let them look around for the right one when they get to the pile, but once it is off the ground, it better be coming toward me.
Pick your battles regards
MP
 
#34 ·
Some shop without picking up others have one in mouth while looking for another, most times its indecision on the dogs parts, probably the 1st time he has seen multiple choices. So simplify it for him more seperation between bumpers at 1st and a check cord. When he picks the 1st bumper up, no here and a tug on rope with either choke chain or pinch collar, whichever he has been trained with. Create a desire to pick up and return quickly.
Switching is a huge no-no, and it comes to light when a diversion bird is thrown on the dogs path while returning from a retrieve, as in a hunt test
 
#38 ·
The first one you come to, pup!

Evan
 
#39 ·
Obviously new to this and many here have offered advice and thoughts based on a lot more experiance then I have. The one thing I have learned, the hard way, is its easier to train then to correct. By allowing to shop, I have no clue on what future poor behaviors this has foundationally been built on by allowing my pup to shop. If I am honest with myself, I don't send my pup to the pile saying "go ahead and shop and when your feel your done and deciding, come on back to me with it". So I just lowered my standards and thats a slippery slope. But each dog and owner is different and I have to weigh the cost/benifit of maybe nagging and loosing sight of the drills objective if I have a dog that cant handle nagging well.
 
#40 ·
Small two inch bumpers 18 inches apart in a circle pile, then cut it down to about 12 inches apart. Keep on rope and as it progresses the very mini second it puts mouth on the bumper, yank rope with a here command, if the dog drops bumper and probably will, bumper that was dropped reinforce fetch do it again. At this stage ear pinch works best.
Later if conditioned e collar nick lowest compliance level. If still a problem go back to walking fetch for a few days.
 
#51 ·
Force Fetch, the entire program has little or nothing to do with dropping birds, switching birds, it is the foundation of the electric collar program . It is about conditioning the dog to pressure, running under pressure and getting out of pressure.
It is the basis for most e collar training. Many or so called washout dogs fail this portion of the program and later as field trial dogs are washed out. Is it the only program, no, but for many it is the easiest to follow .
 
#55 ·
We do obedience and field.
Didn't have an issue. Two different commands. Two completely different venues.
"Find it" for articles. "Fetch it up" for bumpers.
Earl, I'd be curious what method you used for teaching articles, and especially if it was done indoors.
 
#56 ·
We tied articles down, used different types toothbrushes, etc, tried in the dark, had advice from some top obedience people used different commands. Nona Bauer featured one of the dogs in her Golden Retriever book Marshlands Shotzy CDX QAA U.S. And Canada what a mouthful haven't written that in a long, long time. I entered Shotzy in four shows
Everyone wanted to know who the mask man was his obedience career lasted less then 9 months. He did everything perfect, directed retrieve, gloves, silent commands. Now the articles he picked the first one with the speed of sound.
Judge wanted to know if he always worked that fast! All four shows he DQ on the articles, end of his utility career.
I haven't done AKC obedience since these black dogs just don't have the showmanship. Connie Drobac even tried to help me, but, to no avail. That pile work did me in.
 
#57 · (Edited)
Barb, I am sorry it was Betty Drobac, Connie Cleveland's mother I think. It was a long time ago, 1983 or1984. Also forgot some of his stuff old habits die he was

Marshland's Shotzy MH CDX Qual all age ( couldn't find stars) US and Canada Dog World award in obedience WCX ( he had a all breed amateur all age win plus points in field trials and a lotta JAMs) ran him until 10 years just couldn't finish his AFC
I don't know what those suffixes are now?
 
#60 · (Edited)
Kennel maiden...
???

So over there, if dog picks up a bird and rather than return directly to you she drops it and picks up another, exactly what will you do to remedy the matter?.
.
In our trials we have no piles of birds in close proximity to one another. However on our separate and distinct marks the birds may be near enough to one another, say 50 yards, for dog to be tempted to "switch" to another while returning. Or, while hunting the fall area of one mark, before finding bird, dog may leave area and high tail it over to a different bird, again a Switch.
In "pile work" training there is a pile of bumpers, not birds, which is where we have "shopping" issues. Sometimes we'll run a blind with several dogs and set out enough birds for all of them.
When we want to end shopping "NO Here" Toot, toot, toot may be enough. It it becomes more irritating collar pressure may be added. No Here, nick or burn. However in the vicinity of guns and birds use of collar needs to be measured with a bit of caution.
 
#63 · (Edited)
Polmais and KM, do you ever use training drills involving a tight grouping of 5 to 8 bumpers?

Or do you only use one or two bumpers per destination at a time? The Irish trainer I've spoken to only uses one bumper per location to prevent shopping.

So do you prevent shopping in this way, or do you introduce the temptation in training in order to train it out?

Thanks,
Jen

Edit: As example, I found it interesting that the Irish trainer teaches/tests his dogs skills of casting, sending and whistle stopping using a drill called the "rotating diamond" instead of what most use here, the T or Double T. He has 4 destinations that form shape of a diamond 100 yds apart. He stands at one of the 4 spots and sends dog for directly opposite spot, whistle stops dog and casts to either back, left or right. Then switches to another of the 4 positions and runs again. Always having only one bumper or bird at each destination.
 
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