RetrieverTraining.Net - the RTF banner

To Much Drive?

30K views 163 replies 54 participants last post by  Dan Storts 
#1 ·
When or can a dog have to much drive? Can to much drive be corrected through proper obedience training? Any suggestions would be apprecieated.
 
#37 ·
Michael Ellis, the protection dog trainer, said (and I'm paraphrasing here) that really high drive dogs are easy to train because they want the reward (the bird, or the tug) so bad, they're willing to do almost anything to get it. He says the high drive dogs are easy to train with more positive methods because they are so singularly focused and highly motivated. He also said low drive dogs are easy, you give them away to a pet home and you're done. The medium drive dogs are the hard ones and require more force and correction. It makes sense but with that said, I do think there are dogs with so much drive they're hard to control or uncontrolable.

Ellis explains it better than I do. I think it's around the 30 min mark. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xe0-oqqoXvw
 
#38 ·
Michael Ellis, the protection dog trainer, said (and I'm paraphrasing here) that really high drive dogs are easy to train because they want the reward (the bird, or the tug) so bad, they're willing to do almost anything to get it. He says the high drive dogs are easy to train with more positive methods because they are so singularly focused and highly motivated. He also said low drive dogs are easy, you give them away to a pet home and you're done. The medium drive dogs are the hard ones and require more force and correction. It makes sense but with that said, I do think there are dogs with so much drive they're hard to control or uncontrolable.

Ellis explains it better than I do. I think it's around the 30 min mark. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xe0-oqqoXvw
Well stated!
 
#40 · (Edited)
And basically his reward/non-reward discussion explaining why the "nutty" dog is easiest to train fits with Hillman's notion that the dog has to be so focused on the handler because the handler is the source of the reward (retrieve). That's what you see on Traffic Cop. The difference between what I hear Ellis saying vrs Hillman, is that Hillman seems to suggest that you can balance out that medium-drive dog by keeping them very high with "free retrieves" (this is for very young dogs remember... basically puppies.) And I think Hillman has tried to use average field-bred puppies in the videos he produces. Not slugs, not fire-breathers.
What Michael said about training a high drive dog is NOT a blanket statement. He also mentioned that not giving the dog the ball because of a mistake made the dog more conducive to training, as if the dog was saying "what can I do to get the ball" show me show me show me. That dog is referred to as having high pack drive.
What do you think a dog with high prey drive --low pack drive -- hard as nails with the attitude of "I will go through you to get what I want and you don't own enough collars to shut me down",,,as a matter of fact beating me raises my defensive drive and that feels good too.
High drive is only a portion of what we are looking for ,,,trainability and many other attributes is what makes training easier and more pleasurable.
 
#41 ·
What Michael said about training a high drive dog is NOT a blanket statement. He also mentioned that not giving the dog the ball because of a mistake made the dog more conducive to training, as if the dog was saying "what can I do to get the ball" show me show me show me. That dog is referred to as having high pack drive.
What do you think a dog with high prey drive --low pack drive -- hard as nails with the attitude of "I will go through you to get what I want and you don't own enough collars to shut me down",,,as a matter of fact beating me raises my defensive drive and that feels good too.
.
That's called the non-trainable dog. Not all dogs are trainable. Sorry to be the person that had to tell you that.
And this type of dog is the reason why we buy pups from titled parents. Master Hunter, Hunter Retriever Champion, FC, AFC parents. Hedging the bet that we'll get a pup with trainability and good marking skills same as thier parents had.
 
#42 ·
The sum of this whole discussion is this......you buy the pup with the breeding you prefer. This is why the few win trials after trials, each and every year while the many argue about high drive dogs too much. Ever wonder why some owners pass tests at a very high success rate while other pass very few. Yes, they may both have a Master Hunter dog but one dog does it in six entries while the other dog does it in 50 entries over three years. They are both MH dogs. IMHO you must train smart, train hard, train often, with the breeding that can handle it and the desire that always wants more. I call it attitude. The dog that after you have just run a long water triple with a 300 yard blind runs to the truck and the first thing she does is find a bumper somewhere you thought was put away and grabs it then comes to heel wanting more! I can train this type of dog and enjoy it.......plus ahhhhhh.....they are so much fun to watch go. This type of dog is why I am addicted to this game Water Canidae Sporting Group Dog breed Carnivore
Vertebrate Dog Canidae Dog breed Hunting dog
.
 
#43 · (Edited)
[QUOTEThat's called the non-trainable dog. Not all dogs are trainable. Sorry to be the person that had to tell you that.
And this type of dog is the reason why we buy pups from titled parents. Master Hunter, Hunter Retriever Champion, FC, AFC parents. Hedging the bet that we'll get a pup with trainability and good marking skills same as thier parents had.][/QUOTE]

Actually you are incorrect. Almost all dogs are trainable to a degree.( those with dementia may not be ) All dogs have a degree or level in which they can be trained. I hate to be the one to tell you that.

Dogs like this often come from good blood lines. Thus the high drive factor. Someday people will learn its the whole dog that they are training not one aspect of it. genetics are a funny thing.
Pete
 
#44 ·
[QUOTEThat's called the non-trainable dog. Not all dogs are trainable. Sorry to be the person that had to tell you that.
And this type of dog is the reason why we buy pups from titled parents. Master Hunter, Hunter Retriever Champion, FC, AFC parents. Hedging the bet that we'll get a pup with trainability and good marking skills same as thier parents had.]
Actually you are incorrect. Almost all dogs are trainable to a degree.( those with dementia may not be ) All dogs have a degree or level in which they can be trained. I hate to be the one to tell you that.

Dogs like this often come from good blood lines. Thus the high drive factor. Someday people will learn its the whole dog that they are training not one aspect of it. genetics are a funny thing.
Pete[/QUOTE]

I agree with part of what you are saying. Your statement almost all dogs are trainable, to some degree I believe any dog can be a junior dog. But the end goal on my truck is to make the dogs Master Hunters at a minimum FC if the dog has the talent and ability. Because if I'm going to put the time and effort into it, I want to be at the highest levels. Or it's a waste of my time and the dogs time. But I won't beat up a dog or be unfair to a less talented dog. Just for myself satisfaction. So the high drive low pack level, burn up the collar, fail to follow commands because he wants the bird so badly. This dog that you spoke of is un-trainable to get to the high levels of HT’s or FT’s.

I also agree to takes more than high drive and that’s more to having a top level dog.
 
#46 ·
Not saying this is the case with the OP since I don't know him or the dog, but usually the ones I hear describe their dogs as having "too much drive" should substitute that for "not enough obedience". Because, let's face it, at training sessions when you hear people bragging about how their wild, barking, out of control dogs have so much drive, how many times do you ever hear them lament those same dogs do not have enough obedience training?
 
#47 · (Edited)
And the answer is....There are definitely dogs with too much Drive (for me, for most people). Sure you can put a governor on a race-car and get it to slow down; but it is still a race car, with all that fire and speed locked up under the hood; requiring constant care and maintenance to prevent the wheels from falling off, and the car going up in a blaze. It takes a certain type of driver to be able to drive and appreciate a race-car everyday. I have trained with and driven 3 race-cars, 2 that were controllable; but you better watch those turns, 1 top of the line, that you better keep your eye on every second or you'd crash. Long & Short of it is; for me, I have no desire to own a Professional race-car; they require too much effort to maintain and drive; so I'll stick with and appreciate a Mustang, GTO, RoadRunner etc. They are still hot-rods but much easier maintenance, reliability and control ;)
 
#48 ·
Everything is relative. I've certainly seen dogs with too much and too little drive for my tastes. I believe most people here would tend to prefer the higher end of the scale. However, a dog in the 90th percentile of drive is probably more enjoyable than one in the 99th percentile. Most of us don't have the skill or the will to handle the 99 percentile dog.

When discussion of high drive dogs comes up I always remember one trial I got to watch. The one instance that is burned in my brain is a dog taking a solid minute of creeping, reheeling and finally breaking on a land blind in the Open. How it made it through the marks I have no idea.
 
#49 ·
I would bet a large sum of money that, even though that dog had obviously been trained to a high level to get to the Open, at the bottom of all that was a miscommunication about whose birds those really were, or the same problem I have allowed and that I am now having to painstakingly remediate.

I have also heard it said that there are three kinds of retrievers: those that have broken, those that are about to break, and those that you should get rid of. I think (within reason) there is a lot of truth in that statement.
 
#51 ·
"I have also heard it said that there are three kinds of retrievers: those that have broken, those that are about to break, and those that you should get rid of. I think (within reason) there is a lot of truth in that statement.:

Rookie trainer could not have stated it better. to each their own, I will never ever be competitive in the Grand nor do I want a dog that could. The line manners required and needed would mean I would need another color dog other than black bred line of NFC dogs I currently own, or a breeding from a country across the pond. That's OK, because have no desire to run this, everyone feeds what they like.
 
#70 ·
You may be taking it a little further than I intended. While ideally I would like to run my dog like a race car - right on the edge of out-of-control - you do want to stay out of the wall the vast majority of the time. In my situation, I pretty well know at this point that the wall is in our future when we start a hunt test, so we are going back to the design shop to hopefully get him to decide to maintain himself on the right side of the control equation.

Ironically, the program I am on is basically using his intense desire for birds against him. To get what he wants, he has to give me what I want first.
 
#55 ·
I agree with McCallie that there is such a thing as a dog with too much drive. One of my training partners had such a dog. He almost killed himself & the dog getting her through MH. She required multiple high level corrections to make a point & then would pout & simply go through the motions. The dog invented new & innovative ways to fail tests & was in general a PITA! Maybe she had train ability issues. I don't know. What I do know is I would have sold her much quicker than he did.

In most cases when someone says "my dog has too much drive", what they mean is "my obedience program is crappy". The same group of people always have the same "high drive" dogs. I am embarrassed to be included in this category but I am getting better.
 
#57 ·
In most cases when someone says "my dog has too much drive", what they mean is "my obedience program is crappy". The same group of people always have the same "high drive" dogs. I am embarrassed to be included in this category but I am getting better.
I have heard of dogs being washed out because they were so intense about retrieving, they could never be taught to do blinds with diversions and poison birds. So, I think it is possible to have a dog with too much drive, despite a good OB program.
 
#56 · (Edited)
Related story: Years ago a pro I liked (but who shall remain nameless) had a high-drive dog that no-matter-what would creep like crazy. So bad we began calling him "First and ten Earl". Then it got worse and we called him "All-American Earl" and then it got so bad we started calling him "All World Earl". So eventually someone suggested giving Earl some of his owner's valium. And then began the calculus of "OK, how much does Earl weigh?" "How much does Shirley weigh and how much does she take and how long does it take for her to zone out?" Ummm... Earl weighs about half of what Shirley does and she takes 5 mg an hour before she goes to bed. ('Course, Shirley also took her valium with two fingers of scotch.) OK, so we give Earl half a tablet about an hour before he's s'posed to run?" Well, depends, when did he eat last and what's his number and where are we in line up and how long does each dog take to run the test? How many rebirds before Earl runs?

I don't think we ever did drug Earl (someone's common sense and conscience kicked in) and needless to say Earl never titled. But I still laugh at the recollection of a bunch of us trying to do canine pharmacokinetics at a field trial.

Take home messages: 1. cheaters never win and 2. if the dog is that unsteady, probably should get another dog.

I think Earl was out of Itchin' to Go.
 
#60 ·
I personally believe there are many retriever trainers who get caught up fostering and encouraging drive in pups that already have it instead of working on obedience with a sound, incremental program (that lasts months not days.) Too many use the "whip 'em or burn 'em if they don't (heel, sit, come, etc.)" even if the pups haven't really been thoroughly taught these things to try to rush through the "boring" task of obedience. Obedience becomes an afterthought, a "when I have time for it" part of training. Drive often gets emphasized out of pride so strong drive becomes stronger drive becomes uncontrollable or unruly drive. Watching dogs run full speed and hammer marks is fun. It gives us those "Wow! Did you see my dog do that?" moments. Obedience, not so much.
 
#62 · (Edited)
All this being true, I have seen them break a honor and run through a full collar on Constance with there head cranked. There only been two in my life time ( I know that it has not been as long as others) that where true fire breathers and both did not make it.

If you truly have one you will know it and it's not that fun.

Keith
 
#64 ·
Good training + drive = nice dog.
Bad training + drive = unbalanced /dangerous.

Saying that a dog cant make the grade because they have to much drive is a horrible excuse. Put that dog with someone that can balance control and desire and see what happens. All dogs cant be trained the same, adjust for each if need be. Your better marking stylish dogs are going to have a lot of drive. Retrieves should be rewards, hard to train one that doesn't like the rewards.
 
#69 · (Edited)
Noobs exposed!

Several posters whose credentials I know and respect have chimed in on this thread. They all seem to be of similar mind.

Then there are several posters who have commented, who I don't know, but who have expressed similar views to them. I will give their comments in other threads a lot more weight now.

Peanuty regards,
 
#72 ·
See there is a difference, in statement, that no amateur can train a "true high-drive" dog versus a dog that is simply no fun, what you don't want in a competitive dog. a pure nutcase or washout (which is subjective). I've already wasted enough cycles...enjoy.
 
#75 ·
Note: There are problems with this definition in both the behavioral and genetics communities because we cannot measure or even accurately define one of the key parts of the operational definition: “instinctual”/“instinctive”. Also, if dogs can be considered “low drive” the response cannot be exaggerated, and the ability to enhance or diminish a response is a key part of the operational definition of drive. Finally, while you may easily compare 2 dogs in front of you where one has relatively “higher drive” than the other, this type of relativistic comparison cannot be quantitatively tested and validated within or between observers, and does not provide a phenotype that can be used in genetic analyses, or behavioral tests to improve technique.

Synonyms: n/a
Scientific Usage: There are problems with this definition in both the behavioral and genetics communities, see Notes.
Operational Usage: Drive is the propensity of a dog to exhibit a particular pattern of behaviors when faced with particular stimuli. Drives are triggered by these particular stimuli and expressed in a typical and predictable way that is associated with the particular stimulus. Drives can be enhanced or diminished through experience (e.g., training, environment, et cetera), but they cannot be created or eliminated. Traditionally defined in the working dog literature as an exaggerated, instinctual response to certain stimuli and situations. Drive is most narrowly and clearly defined as a willingness, vigor, or enthusiasm to engage in certain behavior, contexts, or situations.
Relevant Discipline: Explosive, General Training, Guide Dogs, Narcotic, Other Detection Dogs, Search & Recovery, Search & Rescue, Service Dog, Tracking/Trailing
Citation: http://www.swgdog.org/

Example: n/a
 
#76 ·
Generally, in my experience, when you see someone crowing about their dog being a firebreather, it usually means a newbie who's impressed by their dog's desire w/o a clue how the rein them in.

Line work is critical. Doesn't matter what venue you're running.
 
#77 · (Edited)
So there lies the problem....Is high drive subjective to the retriever world? You can harness the drive to your advantage if you know what to do. On the other hand, it can impede your progress, if you don't know what to do.... Is it best to seek those you know what to do? Would it be fair in your best interest to....:)

Edit to post: What is the end result or goal of the future handler....Hopefully said handier will stay with dog and be patient and do whatever it takes to have dog excel or maybe need help for that as well. End result is....a journey together....:)
 
#78 ·
So there lies the problem....Is high drive subjective to the retriever world? You can harness the drive to your advantage if you know what to do. On the other hand, it can impede your progress, if you don't know what to do.... Is it best to seek those you know what to do? Would it be fair in your best interest to....:)
of course it is.....have you ever heard someone describe their dog as " my dog is a piggish slug who walks to blinds like he does to marks "
 
#82 ·
I am having a hard time understanding what you are trying to say, but if you are saying it's all about the journey and to stick with what you have no matter what. doesn't that depend on what your goal really is? Some times, it better to put the dog on the couch and start again.

Keith
 
This post has been deleted
#102 ·
I agree with Pete, of course and I think there are two typical situations in retrieverdom where too much desire is a problem.

First is the person who wants it and can't handle it (too little human).

Second I think is the person who is capable but doesn't really want it and doesn't enjoy that kind of dog.

I think it's all related to a person's history with dogs and their goals/objectives.

Personally I want the highest degree of desire I can lay my hands on, but I need it combined with good intelligence and pack drive, then tempered with a reasonable degree of sensitivity.

I have one right now that has no idea how to slow down on the first mark of the day and will blow through on the right line and hunt deep pretty much every time. Once that's out of her system, subsequent marks are much better. She doesn't have much experience yet but she has good pack drive and is sensitive but not a pouter. She'll get it down over time and when she does she will turn in a very exciting performance. It's just going to take a little while longer than it might otherwise and I would imagine she will occasionally blow up in a test. That's fine with me as it's my idea of what a retriever should be...

I'm sure it's not for everyone.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top