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Single T Dog Laying Down On Sit

10K views 61 replies 35 participants last post by  polmaise 
#1 ·
Don't like it but don't have any idea how to fix it or know if it is worth the trouble to fix. Or will it go away when we start to handle in the field?
 
#2 ·
Thats curious. I'm sure an expert will be along soon enough to offer much more constructive suggestions than I can. One of the biggest problems I had in my dogs early training was keeping the tempo up during drills. How much time are you giving between casts? If the dog has time to lay down perhaps your not moving the drill fast enough. Do you have enough bumpers out, or are you constantly having to reload the piles thus giving the dog time to relax?

Just my thoughts.
 
#3 ·
If you mean lying down on the sit whistle it will never go away and will hamper you when running blinds particularly at a distance.
 
#6 ·
Go back to OB, teach the dog both sit and down. Work on it with leash. You have to evaluate why he is laying down. First make sure he has an understanding of both. Sometimes in T work the dog lays down as an avoidance to the pressure being applied. Think through how you are doing the work and make sure you understand what the reason is he's laying down.

/Paul
 
#7 · (Edited)
I have encountered this problem in the past. I believe the dog is confused. I teach sit and down commands for hunting situations. Are you you using sit only or sit down as a command. The dog needs to be taught the difference and the two commands sit down should never be used together. You can do this fix. Try adding an up command when the dog lays down coupled with a hand gesture, Make a fist move it straight in front of you from chest to top of head. Keep the dog in front of you close so you can correct and give the down command. Arm out hand flat from chest toward the ground. Then give the up followed by a sit. When the dog gets the lesson you can reintroduce the whistle on the sit. I do this drill in my front room or somewhere different than their working area.
 
#11 ·
Hard to say ....but my personal experience with a particular dog. When she experienced uncertainty and became unsure of the concept or drill she would lay down. This dog went on to be a solid and consistent Master dog .But almost all new concepts, her confidence would drop and she would lay down. Definitely pressure related . But this went away after she understood and the confidence came back up with repetition.
 
#14 ·
Single T my dog is usually still wearing a shock and prong collar with a tab (correct heeling etc.), thus when they lay down on the whistle; I go out and reinforce the sit with the prong collar. I've seen a couple of adamant downers but it usually goes away.
 
#16 · (Edited)
I am confused as usual. Are you talking about laying down on the sit whistle enroute to the pile or when you say sit at your side before sending? If it is the former, Lardy says to deal with it the same as a crooked sit. Search crooked sit. If it is the latter then ob with a tab.

I don't think it will go away by itself.
 
#20 ·
I have one that will do it on blinds if I put a little pressure on her. It started on T. I just cast her right out of it and she very rarely does it. Funny thing is I usually get a really good cast. She is 1 yr 11 months old and I don't make a big deal of it. It has got a lot better with more confidence on blinds as I don't have to correct her much.
 
#25 ·
You might try your T in tall grass, forcing the dog to sit up to see you, then correct for missed casts instead of for sit. Work on sit/down as discussed but not in combination with the casting drills until you can correct sit/down with the foundation in place.


It sounds like a pressure issue and the dog is 'sitting as hard as it can'.
 
#29 ·
Watch your timing with some of these solutions. If she's laying down to escape pressure and the first thing you do is turn the collar off while you spend 20 seconds walking 50 yards out to her, you've just given her exactly what she wants.

Whatever method you use has to be clear to the dog and in order for that to be so, you have to get the timing of the rewards / pressure correct.

Personally, I would like the dog to learn to sit from the down position before I start. That way, I can correct a mistake like that very easily at a distance and have good timing in the process.
 
#43 ·
Watch your timing with some of these solutions. If she's laying down to escape pressure and the first thing you do is turn the collar off while you spend 20 seconds walking 50 yards out to her, you've just given her exactly what she wants.
.
If you think that the dog watching you walk out to them isn't perceived as pressure by the dog then I would have to say that you aren't the pressurre guru you claim to be.

For many dogs that I have worked with this is perceived by the dog as far more pressure than I can apply with a collar or stick IMHO. Their body language strongly exhibits pressure in these situations.

Im definitely not a foo foo no collar clicker guy. However tennis shoe training still has a very important place in certain situations
 
#33 ·
also blow your whistle softer, don't hammer the dog with the whistle
 
#35 ·
Some dogs it goes away on its own and its best just to handle as if nothing happened and others you have to train it out.

Pressure more than likely is the problem. But just walking out to the dog to place the dog in a sit position,,or calling the dog instantly to pull it out of the down and then applying the sit whistle again can also be perceived as pressure,, and make the problem worse. So I think the correct response would be that it depends on the dog which route you take.

Then there is the choice of working on the problem during the sit to pile or seperate from the drill work,,, many things to consider and many paths to go down
 
#36 ·
I did not read all the responses in detail, but I concur with those who say go back to basic OB.

* My follow-up would be to teach the dog to rise to a sit from a down position, as is done in the Obedience ring.*

This will not correct the problem you are having in the field with the whistle-sit, but it will give you a tool to use when it happens. You will be able to more clearly communicate to the dog what you want. I've had a couple friends create this same problem with their dogs and this is how we resolved it.

JS
 
#37 ·
Progress Report- (First thanks to all who replied)

After some self analyzation I concluded too much pressure on my part. What I've been doing is before running my T, in an area off to the side I sit the dog then walk out about 10 - 12' and give the "here" command, then whistle sit when he gets about 1/2 way to me. If the dog lays down I walk out and stepped on his toes lightly. He responds every time by immediately sitting upright. Then move to the T field and if he lays down repeated the procedure. First two side sessions and T I walked out to the dog several times but each session was a little better than the one before.

Yesterday in my side session prior to the T I reintroduced a nick on the sit command. First time a 2 low on Tritronics Pro 500. Good response. After a few freebies
nicked with 2 medium. He lay down on that one but I walked out and he snapped right up into a proper sit. Then finished up with a few more freebies. Moved over to
the T field. Upright sits on all commands (but not really a snappy sit). First one was nice to watch because the dog started to lay down but them stopped himself and sat up. Lot's of verbal praise on that one.

Today in the side session got 10 perfect sits in a row even on the two times I whistle "nick" whistle. Over to the T field all good whistle stops except for one time when I stopped him close to the back pile. Did my usual walk out -on the toes -then moved on.

Soooo... I think we might be on our way to solving it. A side benefit is that his momentum to the back pile has improved to the point I don't think I could ask for better effort. BIG TIP OF THE HAT TO Raymond Little.

Next challenge I think is going to be how to make the sit quicker without the original problem returning. Open to suggestions.
 
#39 ·
Next challenge I think is going to be how to make the sit quicker without the original problem returning. Open to suggestions.
Make that "next challenge" a ways down the road until the dog gets habitually 100% into the sit rather than even occasionally lying down. Then reintroduce the sit-nick-sit sequence at a lower stimulation level.

The dog knows what the sit whistle means - and that's in marked contrast to "his momentum to the back pile has improved to the point that I don't think I could ask for better effort." Gotta be a balance between going hard and stopping on a dime - that's where you need to read your dog's Tarot cards to see where stopping (and sitting) can be fine-tuned.

MG
 
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#42 ·
Another thing, illini: If the dog does lie down in future on the sit whistle, walk (or jog) out to it in as unthreatening way as you can, command "sit" even as the dog's lying down, instantly (but gently) step on its toes, then repeat your "Sit!" command. What you're doing is improvising the sit-nick-sit sequence into Sit!-step on toes-Sit! - and based on my own experience, most gundogs but particularly retrievers will understand that pretty quickly. Especially when you overlay the verbal "sit" with a whistle command when the dog's at your feet, then if it happens again you use only the sit whistle-toe step-sit whistle sequence.

MG
 
#50 ·
Well, we've got it down to one person asking for credentials and another saying I talk out of both sides of my mouth.

I simply said... pressure + a new form of pressure DOES NOT EQUAL less pressure...

I also said that re-enforcing an incorrect response and then punishing a dog 20 seconds later is not a good way to go.

That's all, nothing more, nothing less, nothing personal.

Dog training 101 and 101A.

Sorry if I came along and pointed that out to people.


 
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