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Bird Placement

10K views 36 replies 22 participants last post by  Tim West 
#1 ·
Although there are several threads out on RTF, I wanted to try to put together a "punch" list of difficult bird placement scenarios that I could keep with me when looking at an area and trying to determine what type of mark I want. So asking for your thoughts given no more than a double and often single...

Trying not to be super detailed if possible, but realize detail makes the mark. Also if distance is the key to the mark, please state distance.

One of my thoughts...

1. Bird thrown parallel with a tree line in a shaded area.


Thanks.
 
#2 ·
Bird thrown from top of hill down the face,, and the mat placed so dog has to run on an angle adjacent to the hills slope to the bird.
 
#4 ·
along a row(higher grass strip or corn) which is perpendicular then becomes parallel to a slope encouraging the dog to run the strip and get pulled away from the fall
 
#5 ·
I think a lot of people fail to consider sky lines when placing marks, especially where the dog runs down in a bottom and looses sight of the mark. They have a big tendency to run to the open sky line.
 
#6 ·
Here is the Open 1st series at Minot this year. I think the short retired, bird #3 is pretty good placement. It was thrown right up against the heavy brush. I saw lots of dogs run right by the left hand side of the cover and hunt deep. I saw others hunt out in front but not get right up against the brush, then they hunted around the back and ended up in the flyer.


 
#7 ·
Here is the Open 1st series at Minot this year. I think the short retired, bird #3 is pretty good placement. It was thrown right up against the heavy brush. I saw lots of dogs run right by the left hand side of the cover and hunt deep. I saw others hunt out in front but not get right up against the brush, then they hunted around the back and ended up in the flyer.
It may be the camera giving the illusion that the birds are throw more or less equidistant, but 2, 3 and 4 pretty much look like they're thrown in a pile. I don't mind tight lines, but those look like tight fall areas. I'm also not a fan of the mama/poppa concept going on with 3 and 4. 3 looks like a well placed bird, though.
 
#8 ·
Here is the Open 1st series at Minot this year. I think the short retired, bird #3 is pretty good placement. It was thrown right up against the heavy brush. I saw lots of dogs run right by the left hand side of the cover and hunt deep. I saw others hunt out in front but not get right up against the brush, then they hunted around the back and ended up in the flyer.



#3 is a classic trained concept,, My dogs would absolutely run there because that's where I usually put birds. The only solid feature in the field.. Yup... The momma/poppa concept doesn't bother me though I don't like but I do train for it. I feel there's enough definition between the marks here that there shouldn't be an issue.

Personally I would like any throw that's retired that is thrown on the face of these rolls with a stand out gun behind it... I know that's not what was thrown but that is what I would have done. I like 1 and 4.

Angie
 
#10 ·
A punch list is really not what you are looking for because then what you will have is a cheat sheet of what to you are really cool things and then you will tend to go around looking for a place to plug them in. Great bird placement some people just seem to have the eye and the knack for it, but you can bet that it came from experience. Good bird placement you learn maybe on your way to great bird placement by running and observing, judging, running and making mistakes, and most of all judging and running and training with people who are a lot better than you and observing and asking questions. Experience is the teacher and to be really good there is no shortcut.
 
#11 · (Edited)
Well David thanks for adding to my thread. By the way people learn in different manners

If I was as knowledgeable as you won't have to ask questions
 
#12 ·
I saw a long mark thrown once that several dogs ran.. it was thrown out of cover, and onto bare ground.. Very few dogs would hunt the dirt.
 
#14 ·
Whenever I get the opportunity to train on birds thrown onto islands I take advantage.
Can't get enough of them in training.
 
#17 ·
I would have thought Angie would have noticed that there is only one station with at least two white coats (#4) and that it is a huge huge throw for a dead bird.

I do think Barrier birds are a hard concept at times, and subtle angled cover is great at gently pushing dog up wind of mark.
 
#18 ·
I was taught that good bird placement is putting the bird where a dog wouldn't naturally/normally want to go. And I'll say that experience is the best teacher of that not necessarily having a set list of things. Watch as many dogs as you can run anywhere and sketch the setup and not where they went. Over time you'll learn patterns that will guide you as to what good placement is.
 
#19 ·
Good bird placement is intimately related to terrain, wind and gun station interactions. Change any one of these and a well placed mark becomes a give away. All of the examples listed are great concepts to train. Simply picking one will get you started but to really place a bird all factors have to be considered.

The simplest way to learn is to train with someone better than yourself and pick their brain during set up. This is the fast track and will get results quickly. Experience is the key.

When I first started, James Spencer's book gave me a big head start on mark placement. Before reading it, I simply threw lots of marks with little regard to anything but the wind. Now 6 years later I am beginning to truly understand how little I actually know.

Keep working at it and you will improve.
Mark Land
 
#20 ·
Good bird placement is intimately related to terrain.


Mark Land
After I judged a derby & a qual last spring I was talking to Amy Hunt. She said that she thought that we had great bird placement all weekend. She said that when she looks at a field to try and determine where the dogs will naturally go, she tries to picture herself going out for a stroll in it and asks herself, where would I end up going.
 
#23 ·
Kelly Greenwood;1018800 I do think [B said:
Barrier birds [/B]are a hard concept at times, and subtle angled cover is great at gently pushing dog up wind of mark.
I'm sorry but I am unfamiliar with this terminology. Can you please explain what this means?? Thank you very much :)
 
#25 ·
Tight behind a fallen log, or across a road, ditch, creek or cover change also. Anything that will act as a barrier and make the dog hunt short.
 
#26 ·
To me discussing bird placement is like playing Madden football, similar terminology but no relation to reality. Good bird placement is like the saying about defining pornography, I can't define it but I know what it is when I see it. :cool:
 
#32 ·
"I've seen blinds placed in this manner - ribbon on the wall of cover and the bird placed within inches or right against or even slightly IN to the cover. Very nasty handling issues at the ends of these blinds even in Master, but I've seen them in Senior tests as well.

I'm starting to wonder if they are really fair to 'teams' at all."

As long has pup has a chance to retrieve the bird w/o whacking his head on a tree stump or log and handler can see pup to the bird I have no problem with it. Shows marking and perserverance. And yes, it can get dicey at distance if pup is not already set up in the right direction. But it's a thing of beauty to see pup hold a good line and push through a wall of cover for the retrieve.
 
#33 ·
Although I believe that bird placement is more art than science, I also believe that there are certain fundamental principles of bird placement
 
#34 ·
You forgot to finish your post.....:)
 
#35 · (Edited)
By and large, I prefer for my marks to be downwind. Cross wind marks can be effective, but generally require distance to work.

Because people seem to have an easier time setting up blinds than marks, one way to think about creating a good mark, is to think about the elements of a good blind.


If a blind is easy, it is easy for the dog to run a straight line from point A to point B.
If a blind is difficult, it is easy for the dog to run a straight line from point A to point B.


At the most elementary level, if you want to make a mark difficult, you want to make it difficult for a dog to run a straight line from point A to point B.


We often speak of a difficult blind as having a beginning, middle and end. That is, there are elements throughout the blind - at beginning, middle and end - that make it difficult to run a straight line from point A to point B.


The more obstacles you put between point A and point B, the more difficult it is to run a straight line between those two points. So, for example, between point A and point B, you could put the following:


• a log
• a piece of cover
• a road
• a ditch
• a stream


Some obstacles, for example, a large bale of hay, necessarily preclude a dog from running straight. Others such as a log may do so, but do not necessarily do so.


As a general rule, you make obstacles more difficult the farther you put them away from the start. For example, if you have a log that is three feet from the mat, the dog is likely to jump it. If you put the log thirty yards from the mat, the dog has more room to avoid the obstacle, and may skirt it.


You can also make obstacles more effective if you arrange them so that a dog must navigate them at an angle. Shallow angles are generally more effective than steep angles in diverting a dog’s path.


For example, let’s return to our log. Imagine that the dog is running from 6 o’clock to 12 o’clock. The log is oriented from 9 o’clock to 3 o’clock. If the dog jumps the log, it is likely to remain on path. Now imagine that the log is oriented from 8 o’clock to 2 o’clock. When the untrained dog jumps that log, it is likely to square its exit and be diverted from its path from 6 to 12.


This principle - using angles to subtly divert dogs - is one that many good marks employ.


That’s all I can write tonight.


I am on the road tomorrow to the Sunflower field trial, so others can pick up the torch from here. Or I can continue next week.
 
#36 ·
Thanks Ted good luck at the trail...I'll be running the grand this weekend
 
#37 ·
When I train my dogs and I throw a mark that they fail, I try to make a mental note of it, and when I set future tests up it can sometimes pop out of my feeble head and make a difference. Here are some of the concepts that I have found are effective marking concepts. In a trial, you might call them the money marks.

Indented triple. This means the two longer marks are equal distance to make up the outside legs of a "V". At the base of the V, is the short retired bird. Usually in an AA test the left leg of the V will be the long retired, and the shorter base of the V is the short retired. The flier is shot last, and is the top of the V on the right. Of course, wind and terrain and the way the longer marks are laid out plays into making this the hardest concept in field trials. It is also called the McCassey Special, named after the legend John McAssey, who just recently passed away.

If you set this test up in a strong, straight downwind, it will eat up dogs. If the wind switches, they can eat you up as a judge. If you really want the short retired to be harder, then you leave out the long retired and just make it a long mark. The suction of this will make the short retired harder.

This setup is why about half of the marking setups in a training day (when I'm training anyway), have a short retired in it.

Another tough concept is to throw a retired gun at the edge of a pond, with a long mark behind it. If you can put the gunner in a layout blind, it's even harder. Of course the field trial Guru's don't like layout blinds and are trying to outlaw them. PLEASE have your club vote against this bad, bad rule. (off my soap box now).

In an open field dogs will run and mark around trees. (Which is why I want to keep layout blinds). If you can put a bird in a place that is open, with trees nearby, dogs that are in trouble will go to the trees. They will also leave the area and go up a hill if that's available.

Throwing marks at the base of brush piles is effective.

Putting a mark about thirty yards behind a clump of trees in an open field works too. Dogs again want to hunt around something.

Out of order fliers always screw up a dog, although I'm not that much of a fan of them. You need to train on them.

For younger dogs a long mark thrown after a short mark on a double is tough. If the dogs has to run past scent it's really tough.

Marks thrown towards another one is difficult. Hip pockets, etc.

Mamas and Poppas are very hard and most folks don't train on them much because it confuses dogs and teaches them to hunt behind a gunner.

Marks thrown against a tree line can be hard.

Dogs like to square hills. Dogs on a side of a hill at an angle to the line make this tougher. IE, the dog doesn't believe in himself or the factors cause him to cave and run straight up hill. Getting out after a long swim makes this really hard.

That's enough for me too....
 
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