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would you allow a first timer drawn as #1 dog to drop back

  • yes 6 dogs

    Votes: 20 19.0%
  • yes middle of the pack

    Votes: 23 21.9%
  • no

    Votes: 62 59.0%

first time and first dog

20K views 82 replies 39 participants last post by  huntinman 
#1 ·
so as you may recall we had to scratch our first derby (drew #17 dog) because of an incident with a barb wire fence (the fence won!). stitches were removed today and the vet gave us the all clear

i signed up for a test last week thinking that was the response we would get

couple weeks ago i posed a question to my training group. if i was the first dog to the line and i told you i had never run a trial and neither had my dog. would you allow me to drop back a few dogs to get the hang of it

responses varied (including from one who will be a judge at the very derby we will be at) most said probably not

well of course i jinxed myself. got drawn as first dog

what would you as a judge do in this situation? stick the script? drop back a few?
 
#3 ·
Three answers

1. Politically correct response: " Just watch me and we'll show you how its done"

2. Real life real world response: "Get in there and Git R Done"

3. Field Trial snob response: " you're not ready for field trials, go try a hunt test"

if you are already this apprehensive about drawing an early spot, maybe you need to re examine if you and your dog are ready to compete, because sooner or later you will draw the starting spot either by the rotation or by luck of the draw..I know of many a seasoned FT competitor that would prefer to be first up in the 4 th series and establish such excellent work that they make others change their tactics to try and beat them
 
#5 ·
Just run, if others say you're not ready for FT and are you'll know that these are the people to stay away from as they are selfish and could care less about you or your dog.
Just don't understand people anymore.
 
#7 ·
Judges judge dogs. Judges may decide to establish a rotation - although most do not for the minor stakes. Other than setting a rotation, judges do not establish a running order.
 
#8 ·
Run number one, it is a good spot. It is a marking test, your dog is either a good marker or not. And as other's have mentioned no drag back. You do not have time to get too nervous and your dog does not have too much time to get all worked-up. Plus you will look better and feel better about yourself instead of looking all wimpy about having to ask for a favor to run later.
Colleen
 
#9 ·
First AKC Junior test for both me and my dog. Dog not FF @ 7 months old. We were supposed to run second but the pro in first position was at another venue. Had to run first. After the explanation but before the test dog, ran back to air the pup. Came to the line shaking. Pup got 9's and 10's for marking but would not deliver to hand. Fast forward two years, learned a lot since then, running Master tests now but still remember how nervous and confused I was. It would have been better to have seen a few others run first. I wouldn't want to do that to any newcomer if avoidable.
 
#10 ·
Hint: The Marshall has a lot of sway over the running order. Don't bother the judges about such things. The Marshall may want to get some Pros out of the way first so they can go on to the higher stakes. Watch those pros closely to see how they line up their dogs. Take your time making sure your dog is really staring down that long memory bird and not lined up for the very attractive Flyer Go Bird station.

Good luck!
 
#11 ·
There is only one reason that the FT Committee represented by the Marshall can legally alter the running order as drawn or drawn then rotated....
It is that such a departure would expedite the running of the trial ..........

john
 
#13 ·
this guy is talking about a FT . Going for blue , not orange. It is different.
 
#15 ·
I agree with Bridget. Unless a pro is at the Derby and needs to run early to get to the Open, the #1 in the draw should run first. The time to observe research the mechanics of running at a trial are at a previous trial. Once entered, you have to play by the rules. Running at a trial is a lot different than running a first JH.
 
#16 ·
there you go....play by the rules...lol...compared to all the other sleazy cheating that goes on at trials i'd let you run 1st or last.....big deal..be realistic...all depends who you are and how competitive you are...
 
#20 ·
Let's perpetuate some urban myths. When the draw was done by the FTS manipulation was possible. With a random computer draw manipulation is almost impossible, I am not sure if Paul, Randy, and the bull guy have been a FTS but I have and if manipulation was possible it would be for the new guy not against him, so I am calling BS on the conspiracy theory advocates!
 
#17 ·
As usual Randy nailed it. You can also rest assured that the running order had been carefully manipulated prior to the catalog getting printed.

All the same just remember - dogs dog, handlers handle and judges judge. Just step up and do your best.

The only reason they even give you a number is so they know where to write down the results regards

Bubba
 
#23 ·
you been around a loooong time and know EXACTLY what I mean...
Some might think too long but long enough to know that whether you are a rookie or a veteran you should display sportsmanship and run your dog when you are supposed to run your dog. In the recent past I ran my three dogs in the first 10 in a 45 dog Amateur but no one seemed to care about the dogs who weren't there but should have been.
 
#26 · (Edited)
I haven't been on this forum much (more active on the CBR forum), so don't know if the tone of the replies to this post are typical, but here's a point of view from a newbie, that some of the previous posters to this thread may want to consider. (Or maybe you'll all tell me to stick it...)

I'm a new handler, with my first dog, who competed in my first derby today. Over the last 16 months, to learn about the sport, I joined 2 local clubs and volunteered to marshal at about 8 events, field trials and hunt tests. I am VERY happy that no one I came across ever tried to tell me that things were fixed or that cheating was common, or that newbies didn't stand a chance. I likely would have walked away before I ever started.

Maybe it's different in other parts of the country, but where I've been, I have heard a lot of folks talking about how they need to get new and younger people interested in the sport so it doesn't die out. Making new folks think they don't stand a chance sure isn't a way to get them interested!

From my personal perspective only, I've got to say, that my experience has been nothing but postive from the folks I've come across so far. I know there are bad eggs in every game, but I have to say that at my first trial this weekend, to a person, including other handlers, pros and amateurs alike, and judges, people could not have been more encouraging, helpful and supportive.

After a less-than-stellar first outing (due to inexperienced handler more than anything), if I had been hearing things like I read in some of the comments above, I might have just thrown in the towel. Instead, I walked away from the trial this weekend with a load of determination, lots of good, helpful advice, and hopefully some new friends met along the way.

If, being new, I misread the tone of the comments (not all of them) above, my sincere apologies. If not, then you might want to think in the future when answering an honest question from a newbie, who is just looking for information and advice, to be less caustic and more straighforward in answering.

To the folks who took the time to give a thoughtful reply to this question, thanks from another newbie, even though this wasn't my question. It's nice to know there are people out there willing to give sound advice to those of us newbies out here who are willing to listen and learn!

PS- the reason I opened this post tonight was because of the title 'first time and first dog', since as a newbie I was curious to see what other newbies are asking about...
 
#28 ·
A lot of truth, here! And this has been my experience as a new person to the sport as well. The reality at a hunt test or field trial is much much different than that here on RTF. Not that I don't love RTF, but there is a lot of sarcasm and myth telling to weed through some days.

As for following the rules in the strictest sense. It's a Derby! It a first timer, there's a well seasoned pro running number 3. Let the pro, who needs to get over to the Open (oh yeah and to facilitate the running of the trial), run before the newbie, so he has at least two dogs to watch and at least 3 minutes to go barf behind his truck before it's his turn. Geeze o Peat.

If the rules were to be strictly adhered to in a Derby, I and 1000 other first timers would be thrown out of the first series for talking to their dog, or patting their leg between birds or having their dog take off half a second before being sent. Judges know when the person and dog are first timers and that they need some advice and lee way to keep the experience a good one. So many judges let so many first time idiots skate on errors like that for a very good reason.

Why not let Danny Farmer run his dog first and let his guy go second? I think Mr Farmer can handle it...
 
#27 ·
Really hard pressed to see where you got the idea that the whole game was rigged and a first timer didn't stand a chance. Speculation that the running order might not be completely random? The OP asked if it might be possible to run later in the order so that he might observe and learn. The upshot of the conversation that I saw was that maybe the running order wasn't completely random but that in the greater scheme of things it really isn't that important. If you gleaned additional information from the posts - that is YOUR issue. Bottom line is that some poor dumbass is going to be dog #1 and that ain't all bad.

Might not be completely random but run yer dawg anyway regards

Bubba
 
#30 · (Edited)
Pardon me if I offended anyone, but I pretty clearly stated that since I'm new, maybe I misinterpreted. And, I never said I thought the whole game was rigged. However, being new, I think when someone reads statements like yours talking about the manipulation of the running order, or of Randy's talking about the sleazy cheating that goes on at trials, it's not unreasonable for a new person to question whether you are being serious in your replies. I also understand what the original post was asking. I never commented one way or another about the changing of the running order, just on a newbies impression of the tone of the replies. Well, back to Team Chesapeake where they seem to be more 'user-friendly' for newbies. Oh, and if it matters, I ran in the order I was drawn today. I agree that you take what you're given.
 
#31 ·
Hmm..... To my group.... Which excuse number does this fall under... 655??? lol- chuckles tonight..

run the dog and worry about the stuff which matters. If it doesn't go well, don't make excuses about it. Go train a dog.
 
#32 · (Edited)
Paul "Happy" Gilmore;1148186 run the dog and worry about the stuff which matters. If it doesn't go well said:
I agree with you, Paul! ;-)

I was just trying to say that as a new person, you hope you can go to forums like this to ask an honest question and get some straightforward replies. I understand sarcasm and wit, but it'd be nice if a new person who is just seeking information or trying to learn, could get information without having to wade through a pile of crap. I think sometimes people forget that they were new and clueless once, too!

(Give those brown beasts a rub behind the ears from me!)
 
#33 ·
I agree with you, Paul! ;-)

I was just trying to say that as a new person, you hope you can go to forums like this to ask an honest question and get some straightforward replies. I understand sarcasm and wit, but it'd be nice if a new person who is just seeking information or trying to learn, could get information without having to wade through a pile of crap. I think sometimes people forget that they were new and clueless once, too!

(Give those brown beasts a rub behind the ears from me!)
You definitely don't need forum replies...lol. You have a few of the top amateurs in the nation to guide you along. yip-yip! lol!!! Folks who have been to the National and own dogs that have titles that no lab will ever likely achieve. I'll just say it- no lab will ever achieve. hahahahaaa!!!
 
#36 ·
Its the derby. What are you going to learn by watching a few dogs? Can't handle. Take your time line up the dog and go. You should know your dog and what you need to do to help him see and remember the birds. Past that he's either gonna mark em or he isn't. Running first assures only 1 only flier to scent the area so you're not comma get a short or long flier fall. I ran my first one this spring. Didn't matter to me when in the order.
 
#37 ·
It wasnt a deby,, but,, I remember when I ran my first UKC Finished test. I was dog 1.. A very seasoned handelr and a Great representative of that HRC game came up to me and said he would switch positions with me (he was dog 5) if ,, in the future I would remeber the gesture and pass it on..

I thought at the time , it was a very sportsmanship like thing to do. I appreciated it very much. He became a good friend of mine..


The derby I recently ran,, I was dead last! Dont know how that happened,,, but If someone placed me there so I could watch other dogs run,, well,, I appreciated that also...

First experiences are important in my opinion..

Most everyone I have come in contact with in the dog games are great people..

Even Dr Ed!!!:):)

Gooser
 
#39 ·
I don't think the run order means too much in a HT.
But since your running a FT the running order means a lot. The set up will change as the sun changes in the sky. Shadows mess with dogs, long gun does or don't stand out as the sun light changes. Drag back scent effects dogs in different ways. These are just a few factors that change as the set up progesses. That's why the run order is a blind draw and it's important to run in order as much as possible.
This time your dog #1 next time maybe you'll be the beer dog, and wish you were running #1.
Have fun and good luck.
 
#40 ·
Since I am currently running two younger dogs, I've probably run 25 or so minor stakes in the last two years. I have yet to have one run in the order of the draw,

If I was the Marshall, I would indure the wrath of John Fallon and ask someone that I knew well if they would consider running first so the newbie could have an extra dog to watch. I can understand how watching a few would help them get the flow of the test.

To the OP, in my experience, running your young dog early in a derby could be benefical when compared to having it sit in the truck for half a day listening to guns going off and all the other associated trumoil.

In a stake with blinds it might be a different story. It's really helpful for me to watch a bunch to see the potential trouble spots.
 
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