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Is It Possible For An Amateur To Compete against Pros In Hunt Tests?

63K views 315 replies 102 participants last post by  Golddogs 
#1 ·
Not if you cannot get entered.
How does a test finalize and 50 minutes later the 90 dog limit is reached? HMMMMM :confused:
 
#11 ·
Well when you have a couple " Handlers" take up 1/3 of the entries it doesn't leave many spots open, and then scratch at the last minute NICE......... They might have to go with a "Owner handler" Master, to let the guy who wants to run his own dog a chance to run....
This might not be a bad idea. Not only would it make it easier for new handlers bringing dogs up from Senior for the first time, but you wouldn't have to run against a truck full of MH's trying to qualify for the Master National. Say what you like but HT's are somewhat competitive and not all the dogs are going to pass even if they meet the standard.
 
#15 ·
This might not be a bad idea. Not only would it make it easier for new handlers bringing dogs up from Senior for the first time, but you wouldn't have to run against a truck full of MH's trying to qualify for the Master National. Say what you like but HT's are somewhat competitive and not all the dogs are going to pass even if they meet the standard.
Care to explain how they are competitive?
 
#22 ·
Care to explain how they are competitive?
I don't necessarily agree with the thought process but here it is. Certain judges tend to pass the same percentage of dogs. This happens regardless of the area, percentage of pros in the flight, or proximity of the Master National. Certain areas/tests have stronger fields of dogs. Pros in a flight are normally better prepared. Finally, a local Master National certainly means more MH dogs in the field that have already proven their ability to meet the standard. If the pass percentages remain consistent, the perception is that you are in competition. If your dog isn't within the top % then you fail.

I personally have not seen this. I do know people who keep up with the %'s and do their best to run under the "easier" judges. My preference is a hard but fair judge. It is nice to go to the 3rd with the A list amateurs & pros.
 
#6 ·
Wait...are you all insinuating that one of the AKC's rule changes had unintended consequences? :roll:
 
#9 ·
First off, poor thread title. No such thing as head-to-head competition in hunt tests.

To your point about a test filling so quickly, I doubt it happened by chance. Sounds like someone may have had some "inside information" regarding when entries would open. Whether it's pros or amateurs, it's sad that certain event committee members feel justified in leaking the date and time to a select few.

Almost as bad as the secretary that manipulates the draw to put all the club members and friends in the flight with the perceived easier set of judges.

I guess fairness and impartiality are just below some people.
 
#14 ·
A couple of the pros are real good friends of mine, and I am not upset with them. I know they are trying to make a living. But the next closest test to the 90 dog master that the OP was referring to opened yesterday with a 60 dog master. It was full in 15 minutes, I know because I started signing up, and on the last button click it said " sorry, as you were completing your entry, the flight was filled. I guess I need to learn to type faster.
 
#17 ·
According to this, nobody was waiting until the last minute. There is something seriously wrong if this is true.
 
#19 ·
It will be interesting to see how many scratches there are in your WI HT. If the numbers I have calculated for a couple stay around the 20% mark that scratched after closing then it may be up to clubs to track the offenders and not allow them entry based on their abuse of the system history.

Just a thought several of us discussed at training a couple of days ago. Handler/Pros scratch once shame on me, scratch twice red flag, scratch 3 times black listed for a year.

I understand making a living but screwing other competitors is just wrong in this endeavor. That is what scratching after close pros are doing. Cheat in almost any other area and you are out.
 
#20 ·
The pros have an obligation to their clients to get the dogs qualified for the master national. All the pros I talk to around here hate the limited entries because like all of us they have to tie up money months in advance to get entered in events. Then if they get lucky and qualify the dog earlier then its a scratch. I don't know what the complaint is really its fair for everyone, get entered early and plan in advance. I managed to get my one dog entered in enough events to finish his title and get him qualified and I am an amateur.

Russell
 
#21 ·
Why do they have to scratch the dog because is it has "it's ticket punched"?

Face it folks, the the Master test has become a pro show. As individuals, you can decide whether that's a good or bad thing, but it's here to stay. It doesn't matter to me. If my dog has been fully trained and performs as it should, we'll pass the test. The other participants have nothing to do with that.

I have never felt I was competing against anyone, pro or amateur, at a hunt test. I might have been competing against the Judges a time of 2, though-LOL!!!!-Paul
 
#23 ·
Seems to be quite a bit of discontent since the ability for clubs to limit their numbers. I wonder if some clubs are doing this (electing to limit numbers) even though they have grounds available to split if needed. I know I was surprised to see a couple of clubs that, in the past, have run multiple flights successfully, but have elected this year to limit the entry.
 
#27 ·
Just because they were successful and have the grounds available does not mean they really want to handle multiple flights...then add on top of the pile, finding judges in the HT world is getting harder due to the requirements...
 
#25 ·
I know of a pro that also missed out because that test filled up so quick, so amateurs aren't the only ones. You have to stay on top of it for these tests near the end of the calendar year for AKC.
 
#28 ·
This is my first post because I am just learning this game and need to take everything in before I start giving out advice.

Let me clarify what the OP is saying (since I have had a conversation with him about it.) Neither him or I waited to get signed up till the last minute. I was actually checking twice a day (minimum) to make sure I could get entered. The test filled up in under an hour. Mine and the OP's assumption is that these guys had to have been tipped off somehow to just so happen to be located at their computer the moment the test was finalized.

I understand why clubs limit entries and I also understand that the pros are making a living at this and rely on the ability to get entered in tests. My problem is that little old me, with just one dog, not knowing a lot of people in the game, doesn't stand a chance at titling my dog when I can't even get entered in the tests. (Not because I wait but because the big names in the game are tipped off to when the test will get finalized). I have a young family and rely on tests within a 4-5 hour drive for affordability and to limit time away from my family. If I can't even get entered in a test (while checking twice a day for it to go final, it is going to take an awful long time for me to get my dog titled if I can only enter one or two tests per year. I now have to make the decision on whether I expand my area that I am willing to travel to a test or just give up on the game altogether.

I have run 4 master hunt tests in my short time in this game and have pitched in to provide some sort of help at every one of them. Whether I threw birds, set up, tore down or helped re-bird. I can't say the same for the big time pros that were at these tests. What happens when guys like me, that can't get our dogs entered, quit volunteering our weekends????? I'm guessing we wll find out soon enough....
 
#31 ·
If a club is now allowed to limit the number of entries per stake, then they should be allowed to limit the number of entries per handler per stake.
Along those lines, I once read a well-conceived proposal for limiting entries in Opens, in the spirit of fair play, sportsmanship and the hosting club's best interests.
 
#33 · (Edited)
The two tests that come to mind are in NE. They filled, both, within a short time of the open. They are not til August and the 90 dog and 60 dog limits are full. I would like to have ran them and have in the past but so be it. I will have to look elsewhere.

I looked at the number of dogs at these two tests and you have 4 to 5 Pros with over 80% of the dogs entered in the events. Then there are 6 to 14 AMs running the balance of the dogs. My initial thought on this is logistics if a honor and walk up are put into the first series. Also, you know the order does not mean anything because it is toast to begin with. They will need some good Marshals at these tests to keep order. All you need is for one of the Pros to enter some Senior or Juniors and then you got some head scratching to do.

They do need to figure something out when you have scratches. Some type of stand by as I would have liked to have that option.
 
#34 ·
Not in an effort to diminish personal pain or situation but from a policy perspective on limits, the following are test dates and entry status. I did not carve out MN clubs so we can assume the data is a little slanted. However, not all need to run under MN clubs to title a MH dog.

Tests open for entry through 09/13 show:

14 Masters with limits not full
5 Masters with limits full

The only full tests have 60 dog limits

The open limited tests have 90 or 180 dog limits

Seems to me the issue is the smaller MN club that has grounds or accommodation issues to begin with.

So is the 'policy' the issue?
 
#36 ·
Did you take into account the 4-5 hour max. travel time limit from Iowa (I'm assuming)? I don't have time to look it up.... That's part of the problem when you don't have deep pockets and not doing it for a living. How is the avgerage joe suppose to play the game when it fills up in 50 minutes by approximately 16 people or so. That's a little over a 5 dog/person avg. Or in this case 5 pros with 72 dogs (~14 dogs/pro). That is getting a little carried away and I could forsee a limit to the # of dogs entered per person but of course that will not limit the pro's helpers/workers entering.
 
#35 ·
There is a 90 dog limited test in NE for Missouri Valley RC that is at the limit. This test closes on the 5th of August and runs on the 18th.

The comment about the proximity to the National MN test makes sense to me why these filled so soon with Pros and folks planning to run in the NMHT.
 
#37 ·
In agility trials the club is allowed to reserve a certain number of running spots for workers. Might not be a bad idea for the hunt tests.
 
#38 ·
Obvious solution is... Run the other venues NAHRA and HRC hardly ever get bombarded, they are not as great money makers for Pros., a lot of the time you can sign up for the test day of, none of that planning in advance junk ;) You do need to watch those Southern & Anniversary ones, those dang amateurs will try to lock you out, and they never scratch their dogs ;)
 
#39 ·
I know that clubs count on the pros to fill up the entry's and with any luck bring some jr and sr dogs to get more dogs in those stakes but also with out the average joe trying to run his own dog it sucks. there must be some sort of comprise. also if the pros cancel there dogs do they get the entry fees back? and also is there a list that people left out can get on if dogs cancel? I am curious I don't know how that works
 
#45 ·
We've had the same problem up here with a couple tests as well, I can also tell you a 60 dog master is no fun for the judges either, know of a couple that said never again.. I don't feel it's a pro problem it's a system problem, there just trying to make a living and have found a nich, with people willing to pay them to run there dog at a level where they should be running there own dog, one other observation the past couple of weekends is that just because a guy/gal has there kennel name on the side of there truck and has a bunch of entries that doesn't mean there a "PRO" witnessed some terrible handling by people getting paid to do it..
 
#46 ·
Hang on... 50 minutes to fill one test and 15 minutes to fill another, filled by pros primarily?

That means someone is getting the heads up as to EXACTLY when the test will be finalized so that can sit and enter multiple dogs quickly.

If that's the case there are a whole bunch of people involved and it's not a very fair situation.

Just what the sport needs long term, more ways to close it off to the regular Joe.
 
#50 ·
I know that they have Snowden held up in Russia, but do you think that we can some how get in touch with him & get him to release the information as to who is responsible for this. It is really sad & screwed up. I know according to the OP that the pros are in on it, but the responsible party is the one that let this info out so they could take advantage of it. I still think Snowden is the answer!!!
 
#53 ·
Think I will play elsewhere until AKC gets this straightened out.

Lonnie Spann
 
#54 ·
You're gonna run out of playgrounds before long! :p

JS
 
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